Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[Geeray]

Good Rant Mhucasey I couldn't agree more about the trace element additions. I've seen nothing but good things from dosing trace elements.

I also struggle with the old school mentality that you must keep nutrients ultra low to be successful. When I tried running Ulns I was carbon dosing heavy, running GFO and carbon and couldn't keep anything alive lol.

 

[Stolireef]

Love the rant. It applies to lighting as well. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen stating that LED can't grow corals, can't maintain colonies...

I have a friend who was recently TOTM. Tank up and running for several years. Lit with AI SOLs. Corals growing in huge colonies and even out of the water. So much for not being able to keep spectacular corals under LED>

 

[mhucasey]

Good Rant Mhucasey I couldn't agree more about the trace element additions. I've seen nothing but good things from dosing trace elements.

I also struggle with the old school mentality that you must keep nutrients ultra low to be successful. When I tried running Ulns I was carbon dosing heavy, running GFO and carbon and couldn't keep anything alive lol.

The key for trace elements I think is knowing how much is being added - the mystery solutions can and do work on some tanks and not on others but there are so many variables! You are very right about ULNS being the only way to go - when nutrients are at zero you are dancing on the edge and corals can go downhill fast. I pretty much don't worry about Nitrate at all anymore but I haven't been able to do the same with phosphate - I see growth upticks when phosphate is low but corals will still grow and thrive even if it isn't low.

 

[mhucasey]

Love the rant. It applies to lighting as well. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen stating that LED can't grow corals, can't maintain colonies...

I have a friend who was recently TOTM. Tank up and running for several years. Lit with AI SOLs. Corals growing in huge colonies and even out of the water. So much for not being able to keep spectacular corals under LED>

What is important when it comes to LEDs is getting enough of them so that corals don't get shaded. I've seen success under LED but that seems to be the one common thread. There are some really nice tanks using just basic blue and white LED setups where lots of units are covering the tank.

It is not really different than other lighting setups. For example, if someone thinks "T5s work the best" and then only puts two bulbs over a tank that needs 8 bulbs, they won't be successful. The cost of the LED units many times leads people to buy less than they need for coverage and then try to make up for it by turning up the intensity - leading to fried corals.

What baffles me about LEDs now is why the costs haven't dropped as predicted. I put together a quote two years ago to make my own "Lani LED" knockoff, which uses a large number of emitters. It ended up being too expensive for me to do. Recently I went back to see how much the costs had changed and the emitters were literally the same price as two years ago:eek1: I would think that the costs would have dropped a lot more by now.

 

[Geeray]

What baffles me about LEDs now is why the costs haven't dropped as predicted. I put together a quote two years ago to make my own "Lani LED" knockoff, which uses a large number of emitters. It ended up being too expensive for me to do. Recently I went back to see how much the costs had changed and the emitters were literally the same price as two years ago:eek1: I would think that the costs would have dropped a lot more by now.

I'm baffled as well. The big companies like ecotech and AI must be doing great job with marketing to be able to hold the prices high. Maybe it's just that they know reefers are foolish and will pay anything...

 

[Stolireef]

I'm baffled as well. The big companies like ecotech and AI must be doing great job with marketing to be able to hold the prices high. Maybe it's just that they know reefers are foolish and will pay anything...

As one of those fools ... :spin1:

I just purchased a pair of G4's for my 125. It's 48x30x20 (LWH). At 30% they throw a ton of light. At 100% they remind me of a pair of 400W MH's but without T5 supplements. Kind of like two MH pendants. As my frags grow in, I may add a third and turn them perpendicular to the front of the tank.

I do think that the high-end LED's are somewhat overpriced but you have to remember that these are marketed to a really tiny customer base. It's not like selling 4K flat panel TVs where you are selling 10s of millions per year. I suspect that the R&D including not only the technology but the industrial design comprise a major portion of the price.

One thing to consider. A 400W Radium bulb costs today almost exactly what it cost 10 years ago. Considering how low inflation has been, I'm similarly surprised that they haven't come down in price. Great products tend to hold their prices.

 

[mhucasey]

As one of those fools ... :spin1:

I just purchased a pair of G4's for my 125. It's 48x30x20 (LWH). At 30% they throw a ton of light. At 100% they remind me of a pair of 400W MH's but without T5 supplements. Kind of like two MH pendants. As my frags grow in, I may add a third and turn them perpendicular to the front of the tank.

I do think that the high-end LED's are somewhat overpriced but you have to remember that these are marketed to a really tiny customer base. It's not like selling 4K flat panel TVs where you are selling 10s of millions per year. I suspect that the R&D including not only the technology but the industrial design comprise a major portion of the price.

One thing to consider. A 400W Radium bulb costs today almost exactly what it cost 10 years ago. Considering how low inflation has been, I'm similarly surprised that they haven't come down in price. Great products tend to hold their prices.

I would expect Cree emitters to have come down in price in two years. Ecotech and similar might keep prices consistent while cost of components drops, but at the component level MFG efficiency improvements alone should have made these cheaper. When I priced them two years ago they cost about 3.50 each and that hasn't changed.
At some point costs bottom out based on improvements in manufacturing and market size(which is what has happened with your Radium bulb example) but LEDs should be getting cheaper to make and the market is huge for Cree 3watt emitters. Either we are being gouged or high output LEDs are a lot trickier to manufacture than was originally expected.

 

[Stolireef]

As I understand the LED manufacturing process (keeping in mind that I'm a self labeled fool as well as a plumbing idiot), while LED's have come down in costs, top bin LEDs are still expensive. I read somewhere (it was on the interweb so it must be true) that only a small percentage of LEDs are considered top bin. For a household lightbulb, it probably doesn't make much difference hence their dramatic fall in price. For a chip that requires fairly precise wavelengths, intensities and consistency it's quite a bit more important.

 

[Pife]

I work as an electrician at an international airport and we buy a lot of led lights. Over the past ten years prices have dropped buy atleast 50 percent. I think lights in the hobby are grossly over priced. I agree most people have at least one third less lights than what they need for good even coverage.

 

[mhucasey]

As I understand the LED manufacturing process (keeping in mind that I'm a self labeled fool as well as a plumbing idiot), while LED's have come down in costs, top bin LEDs are still expensive. I read somewhere (it was on the interweb so it must be true) that only a small percentage of LEDs are considered top bin. For a household lightbulb, it probably doesn't make much difference hence their dramatic fall in price. For a chip that requires fairly precise wavelengths, intensities and consistency it's quite a bit more important.

I think you're right, its just surprising how cheap the "low quality" chips have become while they haven't figured out the top bin chips.

 

[mhucasey]

I work as an electrician at an international airport and we buy a lot of led lights. Over the past ten years prices have dropped buy atleast 50 percent. I think lights in the hobby are grossly over priced. I agree most people have at least one third less lights than what they need for good even coverage.

It would be nice to be able to get by with lower bin, lower price chips, but I would be wary of trusting them over a reef. I agree about the number of lights most people have compared to how many are needed.

 

[mhucasey]

Some 1 week progressions:
April 9:

April 16:

April 9:

April 16:

April 9:

April 16:

 

[kevlow]

Awesome progress in each pic.
This will be fun watching these develop. Please continue the comparison shots every few weeks if possible.

Thanks as always.

Kevin

 

[reefmutt]

Nice colour development Matt!
I really like the center coral. Very dramatic.
Keep the weekly updates coming.

 

[Pife]

It would be nice to be able to get by with lower bin, lower price chips, but I would be wary of trusting them over a reef. I agree about the number of lights most people have compared to how many are needed.

90 percent of the lights I install have Cree chops in them.

 

[mhucasey]

Awesome progress in each pic.
This will be fun watching these develop. Please continue the comparison shots every few weeks if possible.

Thanks as always.

Kevin

Nice colour development Matt!
I really like the center coral. Very dramatic.
Keep the weekly updates coming.

Will do guys, and thanks!

90 percent of the lights I install have Cree chops in them.

I found a discount source for Cree chips on Amazon, significantly less than the DIY LED sites. I'm thinking about building a Fixture for the flubber tank.

 

[mhucasey]

Update:
I started adding some Chaeto to the sump several weeks ago, and tapered off the use of the Pellet reactor. I now have both a DIY Chaeto reactor and a 11gallon partition of the sump growing Chaeto. Algal filtration is one of the few I have never tried, so we will see how it goes. The SPS are all responding very well, and there is just no real algae in the Display tank to deal with, which is nice.
I am dosing daily:
Zinc to target ~8% of NSW(4ug/L)
Manganese to target ~12% NSW Value(2ug/l)
3 drops Lugol's
4 drops AF Strontium(I'll make my own when this runs out)
0.06ppm Boron
3 drops AF vitality after lights out.

I add a few drops Iron Citrate to the Refugia area twice a week to keep the Chaeto going strong.
I dose a capful of Acropower every other day.

 

[Pife]

I'm interested to see your test results before and after cheato. I just added some to my sump.

 

[cFloor]

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on using chaeto. I've used it in the past and I believe it's good for reducing nutrients in a system but I love that it houses so much life, which I believe makes its way into the display and feeds the corals and fish. I'll be using some on my new tank when I get it set up.

 

[Stolireef]

I love my chaeto. Grows like crazy and my nitrates sit well below 10. Plus, it's fun to play with it.