Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[nemodan]

Thanks for all that info Matt.

For my 6 39W T5 fixture I order last week 4 B+ , 1 C + and 1 Purple.

First time I am going to use this combo. I am not in a rush to see the SPS growing, but I like to see them healthy .

What is your opinion about that combo ?

Cheers
Daniel

 

[afernandez]

Very interesting ... just replaced my bulbs a few days ago .
For the first time I took out purple+ .
I did (5)Blue+, (2) GE 65k , (1) Coral +
It's on the cooler white side I think . I can deal with it, now let's see how corals feel about it.

 

[wcharon]

Thanks for all that info Matt.

For my 6 39W T5 fixture I order last week 4 B+ , 1 C + and 1 Purple.

First time I am going to use this combo. I am not in a rush to see the SPS growing, but I like to see them healthy .

What is your opinion about that combo ?

Cheers
Daniel

I used this combo and i liked it a lot.

Ordered new bulbs and will be trying these different combos to see which one i like better:

1. 3B+ - 3 C+
2. 3B+ - 2 C+ - 1 P+
3. 3B+ - 1 C+ - 1 P+ - 1 TA

I tried the Gisemann Super Purple and thei Actinic Blue and for me the Red and Greens don't look intense as they used to with the ATI bulbs.

Hope that helps.

 

[mhucasey]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the suggestions for combos. My problem has been one of subtle differences, and could be from many different things including spectrum. Ed, your info on target Par has been good stuff and led me to raise my lights to where they are now- but I have a very picky eye for my own viewing and the combo you suggest may do the trick, right now I have only one kind of old Coral plus to work with unfortunately. What photoperiod do you use with your combo?

I was really liking the look of 2 purples to 4 blues or 2 purples to 3 blues and one actinic, and the corals were doing well, just the tip color was what was frustrating me. I have tried 2 coral plus with 4 blue plus but that looked way too electric blue for me.

Dan, I think that combo will be fine for you and give you good color- in fact it's the proper ratio of red to blue as far as I'm concerned for best balance(I like 2 purples to 6 blues which would equal 1.5 purples fo 4 blues. I kind of think of the coral plus as 1/2 purple.

Afernandez, very curious how that combo works for you. That's a lot of par and lumens pounding the tank!

 

[.Chris.]

Your thoughts on lumen may be correct. While par is the indicator of useful light for corals it's not an indication of brightness. The extension of the polyps may be a reaction to more brightness but not a corresponding increase in par. Then again you did say by your measurements you are getting more par as well.

Very interesting.

One of the tanks under my care is doing exceptionally well with the following combination: 2 pure Actinic, 3 lagoon blue, 3 Aquablue+, 2 Actinic+ (all by giesseman). This would seem to be similar to what you are trying now (kind of half blue half white with some purple). Growth is simply amazing. Colour is incredible. The tank is dead simple in setup. Manually dosed several times weekly for both calcium and alk. 30% weekly waterchange. Undetectable n and p. It's a Red Sea Max S-650.

Meanwhile my own tank (which has a Maxspect razor 1000k, 2 aquablue+, 2 actinic+ and 2 lagoon blue) doesn't have nearly the same results with a much whiter bulb combo (though that might be due to much more elevated nutrients).

I'm curious to see how your experiment goes.

 

[mhucasey]

Your thoughts on lumen may be correct. While par is the indicator of useful light for corals it's not an indication of brightness. The extension of the polyps may be a reaction to more brightness but not a corresponding increase in par. Then again you did say by your measurements you are getting more par as well.

Very interesting.

One of the tanks under my care is doing exceptionally well with the following combination: 2 pure Actinic, 3 lagoon blue, 3 Aquablue+, 2 Actinic+ (all by giesseman). This would seem to be similar to what you are trying now (kind of half blue half white with some purple). Growth is simply amazing. Colour is incredible. The tank is dead simple in setup. Manually dosed several times weekly for both calcium and alk. 30% weekly waterchange. Undetectable n and p. It's a Red Sea Max S-650.

Meanwhile my own tank (which has a Maxspect razor 1000k, 2 aquablue+, 2 actinic+ and 2 lagoon blue) doesn't have nearly the same results with a much whiter bulb combo (though that might be due to much more elevated nutrients).

I'm curious to see how your experiment goes.

Thats good information, thanks! There is such a focus on PAR and that is still where the corals are getting nutrition, but it seems like the corals don't respond to extremely blue light the same as a whiter light. This could be because of the red or because of the combination of brightness and red.

One thing that was interesting was that I did a lot of internet searching for tanks that grew SPS under only blue bulbs. I found lots of anecdotes of "a guy I know" doing that and having "Amazing colors" but no photos or first hand accounts. I would have liked to have seen or heard what completely eliminating red did to the corals. Dennis(TropTrea) had said at one point that there was a minimum level of red that you needed, I'm wondering if that red also needs other wavelengths.

Since the corals themselves don't photosynthesize, I'm wondering how they respond to different wavelengths and intensities of light to know how to regulate growth and Zooxanthellae density.

 

[Wazzel]

Thats good information, thanks! There is such a focus on PAR and that is still where the corals are getting nutrition, but it seems like the corals don't respond to extremely blue light the same as a whiter light. This could be because of the red or because of the combination of brightness and red.

One thing that was interesting was that I did a lot of internet searching for tanks that grew SPS under only blue bulbs. I found lots of anecdotes of "a guy I know" doing that and having "Amazing colors" but no photos or first hand accounts. I would have liked to have seen or heard what completely eliminating red did to the corals. Dennis(TropTrea) had said at one point that there was a minimum level of red that you needed, I'm wondering if that red also needs other wavelengths.

Since the corals themselves don't photosynthesize, I'm wondering how they respond to different wavelengths and intensities of light to know how to regulate growth and Zooxanthellae density.

Considering the corals we keep are closer to the surface and the spectral absorption happen slower than people realize it is not a surprise that our tanks do better on more than just blue. Red is not fully gone until around 30ft, blue does not get all by itself until around 100ft. Most of what we keep, IIRC, is from surface to around 50ft.

 

[.Chris.]

Thats good information, thanks! There is such a focus on PAR and that is still where the corals are getting nutrition, but it seems like the corals don't respond to extremely blue light the same as a whiter light. This could be because of the red or because of the combination of brightness and red.

One thing that was interesting was that I did a lot of internet searching for tanks that grew SPS under only blue bulbs. I found lots of anecdotes of "a guy I know" doing that and having "Amazing colors" but no photos or first hand accounts. I would have liked to have seen or heard what completely eliminating red did to the corals. Dennis(TropTrea) had said at one point that there was a minimum level of red that you needed, I'm wondering if that red also needs other wavelengths.

Since the corals themselves don't photosynthesize, I'm wondering how they respond to different wavelengths and intensities of light to know how to regulate growth and Zooxanthellae density.

Shih87 mentioned in his thread recently that his LFS guy told him a lot of coral exporters will pump their corals full of blue for days at a time in order to colour them up, and I know this to be true from my own dealings with coral exporters as I work at an LFS. So it's definitely true that blue light will give better colour. Whether or not it gives better growth is another question. I'd hazard a guess and say no. I know that there is a process whereby photosynthesis can occur using only blue light, but I can't remember for the life of me...my specialty is physics, not biology. Maybe ReefVet could shed some light on our ignorance here.

However, photosynthesis is a process which uses both blue and red light. I believe the peaks are at around 450nm and 650nm. Wazzel is right that red light is absorbed at a shallower depth as it's much lower energy, but it still penetrates to a depth of around 20ish metres. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the picture at the bottom shows it pretty well. You can see that corals most likely get some use out of it, especially in hobby tanks, as they are almost all less than 1m deep. Some deep water acros might not use it as much or at all in nature, but I assume they would get some use out of it as well, as the zooxanthellea function the same way.

So my pet theory is that a healthy mix of the two is probably best for growth. Every tank I've seen with what I would consider explosive growth has leaned toward a balanced look, if not a little white.

I also have my suspicions that true UVA light plays some important function in coral colour, if not growth. I've always been curious to try a strip of low power UVA to see what would happen longterm. Certainly the colours are spectacular under it at night.



It's a nasa picture, so I assume it's fairly accurate.

 

[mhucasey]

Zooxanthellae only contain chlorophyll A and C, not B. That means they can effectively use blue and violet light but the red absorbance peak is red that can't penetrate any appreciable amount of water(peak at 662nm). Terrestrial plants and algaes use Chlorophyll B as well so they can use red light(around 640nm).

It may be the caratenoids (Chlorophyll C) that are key here, they have absorbance peaks at 450 Up to over 500.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Zooxanthellae only contain chlorophyll A and C, not B. That means they can effectively use blue and violet light but the red absorbance peak is red that can't penetrate any appreciable amount of water(peak at 662nm). Terrestrial plants and algaes use Chlorophyll B as well so they can use red light(around 640nm).

It may be the caratenoids (Chlorophyll C) that are key here, they have absorbance peaks at 450 Up to over 500.

Do you remember reading this post in the mother of all T5 threads?

When I used 5 B+ and 3C+, I got incredible amount of coral growth. My new combination (3B+, 1 P+, 1 Actinic, 1 ABS, 2 C+) has not yet matched the old growth rate though coral coloration (especially reflective colours are much better).

 

[.Chris.]

Zooxanthellae only contain chlorophyll A and C, not B. That means they can effectively use blue and violet light but the red absorbance peak is red that can't penetrate any appreciable amount of water(peak at 662nm). Terrestrial plants and algaes use Chlorophyll B as well so they can use red light(around 640nm).

It may be the caratenoids (Chlorophyll C) that are key here, they have absorbance peaks at 450 Up to over 500.

This is why I stuck with Physics...

 

[mhucasey]

Do you remember reading this post in the mother of all T5 threads?

When I used 5 B+ and 3C+, I got incredible amount of coral growth. My new combination (3B+, 1 P+, 1 Actinic, 1 ABS, 2 C+) has not yet matched the old growth rate though coral coloration (especially reflective colours are much better).

I do remember that post, Oliver is from ATI, correct? The strange thing about Purple + vs Coral Plus VS ABS is that they are basically the same bulb with tweaks to the green and red peaks. Your new combination has a bit higher green and red peaks with a bit less in the 450+ nm blue area.

 

[Big E]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the suggestions for combos. My problem has been one of subtle differences, and could be from many different things including spectrum. Ed, your info on target Par has been good stuff and led me to raise my lights to where they are now- but I have a very picky eye for my own viewing and the combo you suggest may do the trick, right now I have only one kind of old Coral plus to work with unfortunately. What photoperiod do you use with your combo?

I run my lights for 8 hours full on, no dimming or dawn/dusk period.

Overall tank look is very bright with a slight tinge of blue. I hate the overly blue look. I want all the acro colors to pop with a bright tank..........too much ambient blue kills the look with certain colors like red, purple and blue. Green, yellow and orange will pop more under heavy blue but it looks fake to me.

When adding 400-450 for supplementing there's a fine line between adding more to get that slightly better pop and overdoing it. My best description is that a girl with make up can look good but too much makes her look bad and skanky. I don't won't any skanky looking acros

A lot of times at swaps or vendor sites I have to ask them to turn down the blue lighting so I can see what the coral actually looks like.

Thats good information, thanks! There is such a focus on PAR and that is still where the corals are getting nutrition, but it seems like the corals don't respond to extremely blue light the same as a whiter light. This could be because of the red or because of the combination of brightness and red.

One thing that was interesting was that I did a lot of internet searching for tanks that grew SPS under only blue bulbs. I found lots of anecdotes of "a guy I know" doing that and having "Amazing colors" but no photos or first hand accounts. I would have liked to have seen or heard what completely eliminating red did to the corals. Dennis(TropTrea) had said at one point that there was a minimum level of red that you needed, I'm wondering if that red also needs other wavelengths.

Since the corals themselves don't photosynthesize, I'm wondering how they respond to different wavelengths and intensities of light to know how to regulate growth and Zooxanthellae density.
Yesterday 12:54 PM

I've never seen an overly blue acro tank that looked good to me. Recently I was at a prominent on line vendors and they were using all Blue+ and Reefbrites over their vats (switched from halides). Everything looked washed out to me.....not sure how their growth was, I only bought one acro and within weeks I've seen improved color.

 

[mhucasey]

I run my lights for 8 hours full on, no dimming or dawn/dusk period.

Overall tank look is very bright with a slight tinge of blue. I hate the overly blue look. I want all the acro colors to pop with a bright tank..........too much ambient blue kills the look with certain colors like red, purple and blue. Green, yellow and orange will pop more under heavy blue but it looks fake to me.

When adding 400-450 for supplementing there's a fine line between adding more to get that slightly better pop and overdoing it. My best description is that a girl with make up can look good but too much makes her look bad and skanky. I don't won't any skanky looking acros

A lot of times at swaps or vendor sites I have to ask them to turn down the blue lighting so I can see what the coral actually looks like.



I've never seen an overly blue acro tank that looked good to me. Recently I was at a prominent on line vendors and they were using all Blue+ and Reefbrites over their vats (switched from halides). Everything looked washed out to me.....not sure how their growth was, I only bought one acro and within weeks I've seen improved color.

Do you skip dawn and dusk on purpose? I've seen so many photo periods listed out there and I know a lot of them are just shots in the dark. It's interesting though, the massive and awesome aquaforest tank does the exact same thing as you - all lights on for 8 hours.

FYI a word of thanks to you for the info on ideal par ranges for Acros. I'm curious if that ideal par range changes based on the amount of red light. I had my lights dialed in at 10 inches off the water and then when I went to running the blue bulbs for an extended time it was like the Par wasn't enough. I would love to be able to build on the very sensible rules you start with

 

[justy]

Hi sorry for changing the subject. I have just been reading another thread were you comment on using artificial rock. I'm considering using it myself to swap out with some of my live rock.
Do you still use it and would you recommend it?
Are there any issues using it and what is it called?
Sorry if you have already talked about it in your thread and all the questions.
Many thanks justin.

 

[Big E]

Do you skip dawn and dusk on purpose? I've seen so many photo periods listed out there and I know a lot of them are just shots in the dark. It's interesting though, the massive and awesome aquaforest tank does the exact same thing as you - all lights on for 8 hours.

I haven't done dawn/dusk for over 20 years.......the ambient light in the room has always served that purpose for me. I see no advantage to corals by using a dawn/dusk effect. At the equator and the depth most acros grow the sun is at intense levels very quickly, 1/2 hour after sunrise. Very good old article...........the facts still hold true today.

http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/natural-reef-light.aspx

8 hours was what worked for the corals and allowed for me to enjoy the tank. Above 8 hours some corals would show growth inhibition or I would see white(slight bleaching) on the inner skin of some acros.

From my observations corals grow at night in my tank, if they are damaged by incorrect spectrum, too high par/duration, they spend the whole lights off period repairing the damage. This leaves no time/energy for growth.

I think an hour or so is plenty for dawn/dusk if you enjoy that.

Another thing to note is that the spectrum is the same for that whole 8 hour period. It doesn't change constantly like some people do now. To me that is more a hindrance, not a help..........it's a misguided attempt to think they're copying nature.

FYI a word of thanks to you for the info on ideal par ranges for Acros. I'm curious if that ideal par range changes based on the amount of red light. I had my lights dialed in at 10 inches off the water and then when I went to running the blue bulbs for an extended time it was like the Par wasn't enough. I would love to be able to build on the very sensible rules you start with

I'm glad the info was of use to you........I don't concern myself with red light as the white type bulbs have more than enough for the few pigments or chromo proteins that require some.

High par is overrated by most reefers and light manufacturers.............between 200-450 is all acros need......some species need more par to color/grow than others. Correct spectrum is more important, but the combo of correct spectrum and intensity is the key for each acro and why I try to limit the light variables by using two bulbs that satisfy all the pigments and chromo protiens. I then only have to deal with the right height of where I place my acro.

Not a revelation for most people, but for perspective, keep in mind is that the earth rotates, so the sun continues to hit the coral from a different angle, so even though acros can handle much higher par levels & durations in nature it's only for a few minutes at each portion of the coral. Our lights are stationary and don't move, the corals can't handle or need those high par levels.

Sorry for being so long winded and I hope I'm not clogging up your thread. Thanks for subscribing to my thread.........I try to share as much as possible over there so people can have more success with their Sps tanks.

 

[mhucasey]

Hi sorry for changing the subject. I have just been reading another thread were you comment on using artificial rock. I'm considering using it myself to swap out with some of my live rock.
Do you still use it and would you recommend it?
Are there any issues using it and what is it called?
Sorry if you have already talked about it in your thread and all the questions.
Many thanks justin.

THe rocks in the SPS tank are almost 100% resin(plastic). I like them a lot but there is also live rock in the second tank of the system for biological filtration. If you use a biological filter medium like siporax you can eliminate the live rock all together. I purchased mine from EBay- the vendor was Atlantis Aquatics.

 

[mhucasey]

I haven't done dawn/dusk for over 20 years.......the ambient light in the room has always served that purpose for me. I see no advantage to corals by using a dawn/dusk effect. At the equator and the depth most acros grow the sun is at intense levels very quickly, 1/2 hour after sunrise. Very good old article...........the facts still hold true today.

http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/natural-reef-light.aspx

8 hours was what worked for the corals and allowed for me to enjoy the tank. Above 8 hours some corals would show growth inhibition or I would see white(slight bleaching) on the inner skin of some acros.

From my observations corals grow at night in my tank, if they are damaged by incorrect spectrum, too high par/duration, they spend the whole lights off period repairing the damage. This leaves no time/energy for growth.

I think an hour or so is plenty for dawn/dusk if you enjoy that.

Another thing to note is that the spectrum is the same for that whole 8 hour period. It doesn't change constantly like some people do now. To me that is more a hindrance, not a help..........it's a misguided attempt to think they're copying nature.



I'm glad the info was of use to you........I don't concern myself with red light as the white type bulbs have more than enough for the few pigments or chromo proteins that require some.

High par is overrated by most reefers and light manufacturers.............between 200-450 is all acros need......some species need more par to color/grow than others. Correct spectrum is more important, but the combo of correct spectrum and intensity is the key for each acro and why I try to limit the light variables by using two bulbs that satisfy all the pigments and chromo protiens. I then only have to deal with the right height of where I place my acro.

Not a revelation for most people, but for perspective, keep in mind is that the earth rotates, so the sun continues to hit the coral from a different angle, so even though acros can handle much higher par levels & durations in nature it's only for a few minutes at each portion of the coral. Our lights are stationary and don't move, the corals can't handle or need those high par levels.

Sorry for being so long winded and I hope I'm not clogging up your thread. Thanks for subscribing to my thread.........I try to share as much as possible over there so people can have more success with their Sps tanks.

Thanks for the info- you are welcome and encouraged to post any and all info you like here!

I am a victim of being a very late owl, I like being able to see the tank and without the dawn and dusk times I can't see very much. I used to run the dawn and dusk bulbs for 11.5 hours and the full bulbs for 6.5.

What makes this difficult is that there are so many extremes- tank of the months with all bulbs on for 12 hours, or like Toms tank which is just insane with 14 hours of royal blue LED, 12 hours of Royal blue LED and overdriven Blue Plus, and 8 hours where 250 watt Radiums join the party. I've also heard of amazing tanks with bulbs on for only four or six hours. It's very difficult to get a clear idea what is best.


You make very good points about rotation of the earth and changing spectrums. A lot of people try to mimic PAR on the reef at noon at a couple of meters depth but corals don't get that par for more than a couple of hours, and they get hit with light from the sides at other times as well. My own experience was that too high PAR for the photoperiod I was using was hurting color. Your PAR recommendations work well for an 8'hour photoperiod, I wonder if the photoperiod was shorter if higher par would work as well. It would be nice to generate a calculator of sorts to identify target par based on photoperiod and spectrum.

Once again, thanks for the info and discussion

 

[Wazzel]

Thanks for the info- you are welcome and encouraged to post any and all info you like here!

I am a victim of being a very late owl, I like being able to see the tank and without the dawn and dusk times I can't see very much. I used to run the dawn and dusk bulbs for 11.5 hours and the full bulbs for 6.5.

What makes this difficult is that there are so many extremes- tank of the months with all bulbs on for 12 hours, or like Toms tank which is just insane with 14 hours of royal blue LED, 12 hours of Royal blue LED and overdriven Blue Plus, and 8 hours where 250 watt Radiums join the party. I've also heard of amazing tanks with bulbs on for only four or six hours. It's very difficult to get a clear idea what is best.


You make very good points about rotation of the earth and changing spectrums. A lot of people try to mimic PAR on the reef at noon at a couple of meters depth but corals don't get that par for more than a couple of hours, and they get hit with light from the sides at other times as well. My own experience was that too high PAR for the photoperiod I was using was hurting color. Your PAR recommendations work well for an 8'hour photoperiod, I wonder if the photoperiod was shorter if higher par would work as well. It would be nice to generate a calculator of sorts to identify target par based on photoperiod and spectrum.

Once again, thanks for the info and discussion

I love these discussions.

I happen to be one of the long photo period try to mimic the sun people. I run a long photo period (14 hours) with a short duration (4 hour) peek intensity. My graph is really simple 6 point parabolic approximation the shifts from blueish to whiteish and back again. IMO you can make this approach work if you do not try to over think what you are looking to accomplish.

I suspect there is some sort of total par required, min and max par per hour limits or at least a range, out there. Being lacking on the biology side of the hobby I would have no idea how to figure that.

 

[justy]

THe rocks in the SPS tank are almost 100% resin(plastic). I like them a lot but there is also live rock in the second tank of the system for biological filtration. If you use a biological filter medium like siporax you can eliminate the live rock all together. I purchased mine from EBay- the vendor was Atlantis Aquatics.

Many thanks just been looking at the caribsea life rock looks interesting.
Thanks again, great tank and corals.