Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[mhucasey]

Matt I am really enjoying reading your topic, if you change to a calcium reactor solution, with a good raw material as a media you will see a better tank in time. Highly suggested and it will be a great move. Keep up the good work

Thanks very much and welcome!. When I set up this tank I originally was going to use a calcium reactor. I asked around at several SPS heavy LFSs and was told that calcium reactors are "old technology" and not used anymore. Well, they may be old technology, but they work, and it's about time I got one up and running!

 

[mhucasey]

Why would matt see a better tank in time using a CR?:sad2:
In my humble opinion his tank looks awesome the way he runs it atm.
Colors and coral growth are already amazing!
Will the use of a CR improve colors or growth?
Maybe in the future it will improve/make easier his routines and match up the consumptions easier-when his corals will be huge- but a CR won't make his tank look better:thumbsup:
But if there are some unknown reasons that a CR would make corals look better i'd love to know them,so i could make my own tank look better too.

At least in my book being forced(in way) to throw NO3 in the tank,is not less fuzzy at all.
It's less fuzzy to reduce the amount of BP's(AIO or classic NP,or whatever else) or flow in the reactor,or even stop the use of BP's,in order to allow NO3 to increase,than being above the tank and throw manually every day NO3 or spending more money for a dosing pump devoted to NO3.
And what if(for some reason) you fail to implement longterm or short term No3?
Tank crashes since it might be the only food source?
I like the idea,as we never stop experimenting and trying new things(or using again old methods) but that doesn't mean that they are less fuzzy or relaxing/ideal.
This might be just me because i want to deal with the tank and it's routines as less as possible.
Some wise fella(can't remember his nickname) had as a signature "there is a fine line between owning a reef tank and a reef tank owning you".

I'd love to see the results you are getting with your tank/corals using what you mentioned in your post.

p.s
Matt needless to say i have no objection in you buying a CR buddy.You know your tank better and you know the reasons you took that desicion.Hope the new toy will arrive soon and plug it on with no issues:beer:
Every method -two part,CR,etc- has it's pros and cons and i'm sure you know them already.

After all these months what do you think,did raising your lights helped corals improve their colors a bit?

Wow Mike, lots of questions!. I like that! At the moment things are going well but my issue is that the dosing of two part slowly shifts the ionic balance as more Sodium or Chloride builds up compared to the other part. Additionally, I add back trace elements to compensate for those lost during skimming and those taken up by organisms in the tank. A calcium reactor adds calcium and alkalinity without adding sodium or chloride. It also adds trace elements in a constant way. Once it's set up its very inexpensive to keep running and it will be able to handle the calcium demand of this tank whe it fills in with corals. I've seen plenty of reefers who have said that adding a calcium reactor is what really took their tank to the next level.

My experience with the AIO pellets is that there is some initial nitrate dosing to keep nitrates from bottoming out, but once they reach a phosphate limited equilibrium, the nitrate value stays very stable and dosing Nitrate is not necessary. Of course I ran this way with phosphates at 0.00 constantly. If I wanted phosphates higher, more regular dosing would be required, but in my mind even though I tested 0.00 I'm sure there are plenty of phosphates to be had.

Raising the lights definitely helped, I think my experience is that there needs to be some white in the spectrum, and there is an amount of light that is needed per day for best color and growth. Some different articles have tried to quantify this as a cumulative mols of light per day, I'm still playing around with this to be honest. The short answer seems to be that the lower the light, the lower the max photoperiod - I'm testing this between the two tanks with one having the lights very low and the other high. Right now the tank with the lights low has a 5 hour photoperiod and the corals look good and are visibly growing.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Matt, is it also not the case that by using a calcium reactor you introduce organically bound phosphates in coral skeleton to your water column, which in turn is consumed by corals as food. I agree with your comments about chloride and sodium balance. To reduce my dependency on chloride and sodium, I started to use limewater to meet some of the calcium (and alkalinity) requirements of my tank. One immediate benefit was that keeping salinity constant became a non-issue.

I wanted to try a calcium reactor in my set up, but I was told that since my system's volume is quite low, I would not be able to keep alkalinity constant at low levels, e.g. ~7 dKH. What is your view?

Furthermore, how do you deal with CO2 issues? Do you use de-gassing chamber to neutralise CO2 at the effluent of your calcium reactor?

Thanks

Bulent

 

[glaukos]

Wow Mike, lots of questions!. I like that! At the moment things are going well but my issue is that the dosing of two part slowly shifts the ionic balance as more Sodium or Chloride builds up compared to the other part. Additionally, I add back trace elements to compensate for those lost during skimming and those taken up by organisms in the tank. A calcium reactor adds calcium and alkalinity without adding sodium or chloride. It also adds trace elements in a constant way. Once it's set up its very inexpensive to keep running and it will be able to handle the calcium demand of this tank whe it fills in with corals. I've seen plenty of reefers who have said that adding a calcium reactor is what really took their tank to the next level.

My experience with the AIO pellets is that there is some initial nitrate dosing to keep nitrates from bottoming out, but once they reach a phosphate limited equilibrium, the nitrate value stays very stable and dosing Nitrate is not necessary. Of course I ran this way with phosphates at 0.00 constantly. If I wanted phosphates higher, more regular dosing would be required, but in my mind even though I tested 0.00 I'm sure there are plenty of phosphates to be had.

Raising the lights definitely helped, I think my experience is that there needs to be some white in the spectrum, and there is an amount of light that is needed per day for best color and growth. Some different articles have tried to quantify this as a cumulative mols of light per day, I'm still playing around with this to be honest. The short answer seems to be that the lower the light, the lower the max photoperiod - I'm testing this between the two tanks with one having the lights very low and the other high. Right now the tank with the lights low has a 5 hour photoperiod and the corals look good and are visibly growing.

I like reef/hobby based discussions too buddy:beer:

I've been using/adding FM,Ca and kh in the tank for more than three years with no problem.
I've read somewhere(will try to find the link to make my writings solid) that the ionic balance shifts because of the use of magnesium and not from ca and kh.
Off course i'm doing 10% WC every week or 15% every other and that might help too prevent an unbalance .
On the other hand i've a good friend who adds magnesium(FM,all of the parts and some trace elements in there),takes him sometimes three months to make a good/big WC and his corals show absolutely no bad reaction.:sad2:
Every tank is different i guess.

Don't get me wrong.
I'm not discarding CR or claiming it's not good.After all i had some good results with it too.Was using two different brands for two years each.
But in my case the pros and cons of each method led me to another direction.
I don't mention them because i don't want to pretend to be a guru or something.
I was really curious to see what was meant by the expression that "you will see a better tank in time" and why.Just in case there is some secret i don't know about it,which will make my corals have awesome colors or make their growth rate explode

Regarding the pellets,AIO didn't work for me either buddy.They didn't do any harm at anything but they weren't so plug n play as i thought they were,compared to the good old classic NP.
The material was melting ,leaving behind only the gfo.In my case no3 were rising but po4 were 0 because of the gfo's presence.
So when i added more quantity to keep in check no3's levels i added more gfo too which striped my water from po4 even more and that's not a good thing(at least in my case and for my tank).
Plus the fact that this procedure led to some ups and downs in no3 level.
So in order to have some steady results,when my no3 where rising i didn't add the missing/melted amount but replacing the total quantity i was using(200-250ml in my case) with new.
So i thought that NP where a bit easier and went back to them again.Especially with marine's innovative reactor which literally needs 2 min to do your job.

As for the lights i agree matt.
I have a 6 hour full light period and 7 total with the actinics.I have to mention though that sun hits the tank at least 4-5 hours a day.Can't be sure though, if natural light was out of the picture,if a 6 hour would be sufficient.
I guess it would be ok but haven't tested it to be sure.
With that light schedule i change my bulbs every 16-18 months.
How about you?

 

[discos]

Why would matt see a better tank in time using a CR?:sad2:

WOW, so many questions from just a phrase i said!! You could just ask what i mean when i say it would be better. :lolspin:


Lets take from the start

Why would matt see a better tank in time using a CR?
In my humble opinion his tank looks awesome the way he runs it atm.
Colors and coral growth are already amazing!

In my humble opinion, his tank is already amasing indeed!! But the momment we are stop looking for improvement and progress, we are not present our tank in a forum talking about how to make it better.

Will the use of a CR improve colors or growth?
Maybe in the future it will improve/make easier his routines and match up the consumptions easier-when his corals will be huge- but a CR won't make his tank look better:thumbsup:

Maybe it will not make his tank better, maybe it will make it better, either in color, either in stability. You have personaly experience to know? I do have for at least 2 tanks so far and that is all i am saying, IMHO it is better a calcium reactor compare to balling or two parts. Already many people here in RC state this. Does not matter if it an "old" tech, its the best for me and its a classic one.

But if there are some unknown reasons that a CR would make corals look better i'd love to know them,so i could make my own tank look better too.

Thit is a very healthy behavior, in our hobby we have to think outside of the box sometimes, but with solid base in our thinking. Calcium reactor, has a full logic behind it, a pure solid one and we want to make use of it.

At least in my book being forced(in way) to throw NO3 in the tank,is not less fuzzy at all.
It's less fuzzy to reduce the amount of BP's(AIO or classic NP,or whatever else) or flow in the reactor,or even stop the use of BP's,in order to allow NO3 to increase,than being above the tank and throw manually every day NO3 or spending more money for a dosing pump devoted to NO3.
And what if(for some reason) you fail to implement longterm or short term No3?
Tank crashes since it might be the only food source?

Reduce the amount of any carbon dosing will increase the amount of both nitrate and phosphate in our water, it will not make them balanced. What we want is the balance between them and it is a common belief that po4 can be harder to control with a carbon source than nitrates. There is already some amasing topics here in RC, talking exacly about this imbalance that ussualy happents and simple ways that you can deal with it. And the most natural way so far is to add nitrates in this case, or phosphates if you have All in one Pelets like slavetonet mentioned before.

Exist amasing topics here to read about this kind of thinking. Topics like these that explain a great deal of how we can use nature and the simplest aproaches and get such great results!!

For example
I'm fertilizing my tank:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2530490

Or this great topic where Matt also participates a lot.
Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2210947

or even the mother of these subjects
Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

We are talking about amasing information in these topics and the list is much bigger. The way an aquarium works in a kind of balance nutrients, in the base of Redfield scale is amasing! The most amasing thing, is that we can use this in our favor and here i could see exactly how from people that already tried it and i am taking their know how for my benefit. The least i could do is reply back what my own experience was. Things that show exactly how Zeovit works, Biopellets works, Liquid carbon etc in great depth.

Why NO3 addition in balance to be the only think as "food" source, i would like to know your point of view. Nitrates is not a food, its a nutrient.

I like the idea,as we never stop experimenting and trying new things(or using again old methods) but that doesn't mean that they are less fuzzy or relaxing/ideal.
This might be just me because i want to deal with the tank and it's routines as less as possible.
Some wise fella(can't remember his nickname) had as a signature "there is a fine line between owning a reef tank and a reef tank owning you".

I'd love to see the results you are getting with your tank/corals using what you mentioned in your post.

The idea of fuzzy is different to each one of us. Someone wants to have a tank with the minimum amount of effort, its a hobby, totaly normal. On the other hand someone, might wanted to devote 3, maybe 4 times your time and efford. He will see a bit better results, not much but he will see, maybe 10% or even 15%? He will see some better results. That is also totaly normal and there is soooo many people here that are doing this that i do not feel lonely in a way :bounce3:

My friend you will see my tank soon enought. Right now i am preparing for a trip to a coral heaven in South east Asia, i really hope when i returned to still have an aquarium to show :fish1:

I like reef/hobby based discussions too buddy:beer:

I've been using/adding FM,Ca and kh in the tank for more than three years with no problem.
I've read somewhere(will try to find the link to make my writings solid) that the ionic balance shifts because of the use of magnesium and not from ca and kh.
Off course i'm doing 10% WC every week or 15% every other and that might help too prevent an unbalance .
On the other hand i've a good friend who adds magnesium(FM,all of the parts and some trace elements in there),takes him sometimes three months to make a good/big WC and his corals show absolutely no bad reaction.:sad2:
Every tank is different i guess.

Everyone indeed loves a good reef discussion and i can not be the exception, so i take the liberty and hijacked Matt's topic. Hope its ok :strange:

Ionic imbalance unfortunatly exists on all chemicals that we add in the water, with the exeption of kalkwasser. KH is based on Na and calcium and magnesium is based on Chloride. So when the tank is new you can skip a good of water changes, but the more old the water it becomes you are starting to have weird stn's on the most sensitive coral first. Many friends of mine have reported this problem. I have cases where people using CR went to balling to try the "new" aproach and after they where forced to return to CR cause of the problems they experienced. The reef moderator of aquatek forum in Greece for example experience that. An old and stable aquarium with huge acro colonies and stable and growing for years. Its a big list.

So better for me and from what i have experienced, means a huge decreace in unexplained stn's on delicate sps and a bit of depth in the colors in time. Not a bad trade off :dance:

Lighting set up is an other big subject that going on for many years. In my case, i own the hybrid of ATI and my leds are on for 11 hours around 120w power in 550lt tank, and the T5 banks (8) are on for 5 hours. I can grow sps on the corners of the aquarium easy and the colors and growth of the acros is showing the lights to be more than enought. A humple observation i had when i went from 4 hours of T5 to 5 hours, was an increased in kh and ca consumption as a result of extra growth and also i experienced a lightness in the colors of some acros. Matt every time i read your posts i laught with this "I call the big one "Bitey"". I am a fun :lolspin:

 

[mhucasey]

I like reef/hobby based discussions too buddy:beer:

I've been using/adding FM,Ca and kh in the tank for more than three years with no problem.
I've read somewhere(will try to find the link to make my writings solid) that the ionic balance shifts because of the use of magnesium and not from ca and kh.
Off course i'm doing 10% WC every week or 15% every other and that might help too prevent an unbalance .
On the other hand i've a good friend who adds magnesium(FM,all of the parts and some trace elements in there),takes him sometimes three months to make a good/big WC and his corals show absolutely no bad reaction.:sad2:
Every tank is different i guess.

Mike, I experienced the imbalance when I first started using 2-part, because I was dosing different amounts of Calcium and Alkalinity. If you dose equal amounts they will not get out of balance. They do get thrown out of balance when you add Magnesium Chloride or Strontium chloride or any other chloride, then the balance begins shifting. I don't like water changes, this current tank has gone close to 6 months without one, the previous tank over a year. Much easier to keep that going with a calcium reactor, I think GlennF has been going close to a decade without a water change now. I would be fine with once a year but I like to push the limit.

Regarding the pellets,AIO didn't work for me either buddy.They didn't do any harm at anything but they weren't so plug n play as i thought they were,compared to the good old classic NP.
The material was melting ,leaving behind only the gfo.In my case no3 were rising but po4 were 0 because of the gfo's presence.
So when i added more quantity to keep in check no3's levels i added more gfo too which striped my water from po4 even more and that's not a good thing(at least in my case and for my tank).
Plus the fact that this procedure led to some ups and downs in no3 level.
So in order to have some steady results,when my no3 where rising i didn't add the missing/melted amount but replacing the total quantity i was using(200-250ml in my case) with new.
So i thought that NP where a bit easier and went back to them again.Especially with marine's innovative reactor which literally needs 2 min to do your job.

The melted bits of pellets are a problem, and I think periodic replacement may be the way to correct the problem, but I wouldn't say that the pellets have been a failure in any way. They have provided an exceptionally stable tank for a long time with very little work. My recent couple of STN issues are more about some careless additions of trace elements than anything else.

As for the lights i agree matt.
I have a 6 hour full light period and 7 total with the actinics.I have to mention though that sun hits the tank at least 4-5 hours a day.Can't be sure though, if natural light was out of the picture,if a 6 hour would be sufficient.
I guess it would be ok but haven't tested it to be sure.
With that light schedule i change my bulbs every 16-18 months.
How about you?

I consistently used a 6.5 hour all bulbs on period in the middle with a 11.5 hour 2-bulb dawn to dusk period. I've been seeing a lot of european tanks using 12 hour total light periods with 8 hours all bulbs on. It seems for me that either 8 hours is too much or that the corals need a lot longer to adjust. With a shallow tank and 12 bulbs, there is a lot of light and Ill stay at 6-6.5 hours full intensity for now.

 

[mhucasey]

WOW, so many questions from just a phrase i said!! You could just ask what i mean when i say it would be better. :lolspin:


Lets take from the start

In my humble opinion, his tank is already amasing indeed!! But the momment we are stop looking for improvement and progress, we are not present our tank in a forum talking about how to make it better.



Maybe it will not make his tank better, maybe it will make it better, either in color, either in stability. You have personaly experience to know? I do have for at least 2 tanks so far and that is all i am saying, IMHO it is better a calcium reactor compare to balling or two parts. Already many people here in RC state this. Does not matter if it an "old" tech, its the best for me and its a classic one.



Thit is a very healthy behavior, in our hobby we have to think outside of the box sometimes, but with solid base in our thinking. Calcium reactor, has a full logic behind it, a pure solid one and we want to make use of it.



Reduce the amount of any carbon dosing will increase the amount of both nitrate and phosphate in our water, it will not make them balanced. What we want is the balance between them and it is a common belief that po4 can be harder to control with a carbon source than nitrates. There is already some amasing topics here in RC, talking exacly about this imbalance that ussualy happents and simple ways that you can deal with it. And the most natural way so far is to add nitrates in this case, or phosphates if you have All in one Pelets like slavetonet mentioned before.

Exist amasing topics here to read about this kind of thinking. Topics like these that explain a great deal of how we can use nature and the simplest aproaches and get such great results!!

For example
I'm fertilizing my tank:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2530490

Or this great topic where Matt also participates a lot.
Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2210947

or even the mother of these subjects
Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

We are talking about amasing information in these topics and the list is much bigger. The way an aquarium works in a kind of balance nutrients, in the base of Redfield scale is amasing! The most amasing thing, is that we can use this in our favor and here i could see exactly how from people that already tried it and i am taking their know how for my benefit. The least i could do is reply back what my own experience was. Things that show exactly how Zeovit works, Biopellets works, Liquid carbon etc in great depth.

Why NO3 addition in balance to be the only think as "food" source, i would like to know your point of view. Nitrates is not a food, its a nutrient.



The idea of fuzzy is different to each one of us. Someone wants to have a tank with the minimum amount of effort, its a hobby, totaly normal. On the other hand someone, might wanted to devote 3, maybe 4 times your time and efford. He will see a bit better results, not much but he will see, maybe 10% or even 15%? He will see some better results. That is also totaly normal and there is soooo many people here that are doing this that i do not feel lonely in a way :bounce3:

My friend you will see my tank soon enought. Right now i am preparing for a trip to a coral heaven in South east Asia, i really hope when i returned to still have an aquarium to show :fish1:




Everyone indeed loves a good reef discussion and i can not be the exception, so i take the liberty and hijacked Matt's topic. Hope its ok :strange:

Ionic imbalance unfortunatly exists on all chemicals that we add in the water, with the exeption of kalkwasser. KH is based on Na and calcium and magnesium is based on Chloride. So when the tank is new you can skip a good of water changes, but the more old the water it becomes you are starting to have weird stn's on the most sensitive coral first. Many friends of mine have reported this problem. I have cases where people using CR went to balling to try the "new" aproach and after they where forced to return to CR cause of the problems they experienced. The reef moderator of aquatek forum in Greece for example experience that. An old and stable aquarium with huge acro colonies and stable and growing for years. Its a big list.

So better for me and from what i have experienced, means a huge decreace in unexplained stn's on delicate sps and a bit of depth in the colors in time. Not a bad trade off :dance:

Lighting set up is an other big subject that going on for many years. In my case, i own the hybrid of ATI and my leds are on for 11 hours around 120w power in 550lt tank, and the T5 banks (8) are on for 5 hours. I can grow sps on the corners of the aquarium easy and the colors and growth of the acros is showing the lights to be more than enought. A humple observation i had when i went from 4 hours of T5 to 5 hours, was an increased in kh and ca consumption as a result of extra growth and also i experienced a lightness in the colors of some acros. Matt every time i read your posts i laught with this "I call the big one "Bitey"". I am a fun :lolspin:

Wow, lots of info! I was actually a very early adopter of Nitrate dosing, and a poster on the "Dosing nitrates to reduce phosphates" thread. I'm very comfortable with the concepts and have proven them out in my tank. In just a few years the hobby went from acting like dosing Nitrates was crazy talk to accepting that there is a definite issue when people have nitrate starved reefs. This is a really good thing, and dosing some phosphate may be necessary in some people's tanks as well.

I like challenges and am always trying to improve the tank - growth and color are never as good as they can be for me. Its a mental illness really:fun5:

I agree with you that long term use of 2-part solutions can lead to a slow drift of the ionic balance, and it wouldn't surprise me if that drift contributed to STN events. As i stated earlier though, I went a year without a water change and the corals were pretty stunning, this is what it looked like after a year with no water changes:

I think you eventually run out of luck or need to intentionally adjust the imbalance. FWIW, Randy Holmes-Farley did a Triton test on his own tank and found that even with his careful additions and water changes, there was an imbalance forming. The calcium reactor should prevent that and let me continue without worrying about an ionic drift.

I like looking at the tank with all the lights on and that makes me a little frustrated as the shorter photoperiods do a better job with the corals but then give me less time to see the tank. I was loving the idea of an 8 hour full light photoperiod but Ill have to come back to that at a later time.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

FWIW, Randy Holmes-Farley did a Triton test on his own tank and found that even with his careful additions and water changes, there was an imbalance forming.

If I remember correctly, RHF said that he had not used his own recipe as far as the magnesium part of his two-part recipe was concerned. He said he had used magnesium sulphate only to keep magnesium in check.

 

[mhucasey]

If I remember correctly, RHF said that he had not used his own recipe as far as the magnesium part of his two-part recipe was concerned. He said he had used magnesium sulphate only to keep magnesium in check.

Yep, you are right. He had thought that not using the Magnesium Chloride would be ok. His tank wasn't badly imbalanced or anything, but it can happen and water changes don't necessarily correct the problem, just slow it.

 

[mhucasey]

Matt, is it also not the case that by using a calcium reactor you introduce organically bound phosphates in coral skeleton to your water column, which in turn is consumed by corals as food. I agree with your comments about chloride and sodium balance. To reduce my dependency on chloride and sodium, I started to use limewater to meet some of the calcium (and alkalinity) requirements of my tank. One immediate benefit was that keeping salinity constant became a non-issue.

I wanted to try a calcium reactor in my set up, but I was told that since my system's volume is quite low, I would not be able to keep alkalinity constant at low levels, e.g. ~7 dKH. What is your view?

Furthermore, how do you deal with CO2 issues? Do you use de-gassing chamber to neutralise CO2 at the effluent of your calcium reactor?

Thanks

Bulent

Sorry, didn't mean to skip the response for this. I haven't had issues with salinity, the amount of salt exported from skimmate seems to have balanced pretty well with the buildup of salt from the two-part. In smaller tanks that's harder to manage. I have used Kalk in the top-off before, the only issue was that the evaporation rate isn't constant in the tank and I had some problems keeping the ALK value steady when combining this with the 2-part.

Unfortunately the smaller the tank, the more difficult it seems to be to make a Calcium reactor work. It takes some time to balance the effluent rate and CO2 flow to keep the ALK steady. I have just under 200 gallons to work with so that should keep the swings minimal. I also have no fear of low Alk so i will allow the value to drop if needed and then slowly increase until I hit the sweet spot. CO2 in the effluent can be partially mitigated by a two chamber reactor.

 

[mhucasey]

Some things of note since I pulled out the pellets and removed the small bits and then returned 400ml of mostly whole pellets to the reactor:
1). The pellets tumble very well when they are uniform in size.
2). Way less fines are ending up in the filter sock on the outlet of the reactor.
3). The sock is getting clogged with bacteria- it didn't do that before.
4). There is a mini cyano bloom in the SPS tank(only). The bacterial balance has shifted.

 

[BrentH]

I've done both car and dosing pump at one time tried to do both at same time when I did both at same time had a hard time keeping things stable .... I now have a cr on one tank and doser on my prized tank imo dosing pump easier just my 2 cents

 

[mhucasey]

I've done both car and dosing pump at one time tried to do both at same time when I did both at same time had a hard time keeping things stable .... I now have a cr on one tank and doser on my prized tank imo dosing pump easier just my 2 cents

Do you use a peristaltic pump to pull the effluent from the reactor? From what I understand that is the key to making the reactors easy to set and run.

 

[glaukos]

WOW, so many questions from just a phrase i said!! You could just ask what i mean when i say it would be better. :lolspin :


Lets take from the start

In my humble opinion, his tank is already amasing indeed!! But the momment we are stop looking for improvement and progress, we are not present our tank in a forum talking about how to make it better.

Maybe it will not make his tank better, maybe it will make it better, either in color, either in stability. You have personaly experience to know? I do have for at least 2 tanks so far and that is all i am saying, IMHO it is better a calcium reactor compare to balling or two parts. Already many people here in RC state this. Does not matter if it an "old" tech, its the best for me and its a classic one.

Thit is a very healthy behavior, in our hobby we have to think outside of the box sometimes, but with solid base in our thinking. Calcium reactor, has a full logic behind it, a pure solid one and we want to make use of it.

Reduce the amount of any carbon dosing will increase the amount of both nitrate and phosphate in our water, it will not make them balanced. What we want is the balance between them and it is a common belief that po4 can be harder to control with a carbon source than nitrates. There is already some amasing topics here in RC, talking exacly about this imbalance that ussualy happents and simple ways that you can deal with it. And the most natural way so far is to add nitrates in this case, or phosphates if you have All in one Pelets like slavetonet mentioned before.

Exist amasing topics here to read about this kind of thinking. Topics like these that explain a great deal of how we can use nature and the simplest aproaches and get such great results!!

For example
I'm fertilizing my tank:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2530490

Or this great topic where Matt also participates a lot.
Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2210947

or even the mother of these subjects
Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

We are talking about amasing information in these topics and the list is much bigger. The way an aquarium works in a kind of balance nutrients, in the base of Redfield scale is amasing! The most amasing thing, is that we can use this in our favor and here i could see exactly how from people that already tried it and i am taking their know how for my benefit. The least i could do is reply back what my own experience was. Things that show exactly how Zeovit works, Biopellets works, Liquid carbon etc in great depth.

Why NO3 addition in balance to be the only think as "food" source, i would like to know your point of view. Nitrates is not a food, its a nutrient.

The idea of fuzzy is different to each one of us. Someone wants to have a tank with the minimum amount of effort, its a hobby, totaly normal. On the other hand someone, might wanted to devote 3, maybe 4 times your time and efford. He will see a bit better results, not much but he will see, maybe 10% or even 15%? He will see some better results. That is also totaly normal and there is soooo many people here that are doing this that i do not feel lonely in a way :bounce3 :

My friend you will see my tank soon enought. Right now i am preparing for a trip to a coral heaven in South east Asia, i really hope when i returned to still have an aquarium to show :fish1 :

Everyone indeed loves a good reef discussion and i can not be the exception, so i take the liberty and hijacked Matt's topic. Hope its ok : strange:

Ionic imbalance unfortunatly exists on all chemicals that we add in the water, with the exeption of kalkwasser. KH is based on Na and calcium and magnesium is based on Chloride. So when the tank is new you can skip a good of water changes, but the more old the water it becomes you are starting to have weird stn's on the most sensitive coral first. Many friends of mine have reported this problem. I have cases where people using CR went to balling to try the "new" aproach and after they where forced to return to CR cause of the problems they experienced. The reef moderator of aquatek forum in Greece for example experience that. An old and stable aquarium with huge acro colonies and stable and growing for years. Its a big list.

So better for me and from what i have experienced, means a huge decreace in unexplained stn's on delicate sps and a bit of depth in the colors in time. Not a bad trade off :dance :

Lighting set up is an other big subject that going on for many years. In my case, i own the hybrid of ATI and my leds are on for 11 hours around 120w power in 550lt tank, and the T5 banks (8) are on for 5 hours. I can grow sps on the corners of the aquarium easy and the colors and growth of the acros is showing the lights to be more than enought. A humple observation i had when i went from 4 hours of T5 to 5 hours, was an increased in kh and ca consumption as a result of extra growth and also i experienced a lightness in the colors of some acros. Matt every time i read your posts i laught with this "I call the big one "Bitey"". I am a fun :lolspin :

100% sure that would happen

Blah,blah,blah and conclusions /points....zero.
I made two simple ?'s and neither one was answered.
I learned that you will leave for East Asia(as if i care or asked you),what your lighting schedule is(as if i asked you-My question was specific and addressed to matt and wanted to know how and if tweaking his fixtures hight{some weeks ago} changed his corals look),etc and other useless info.
Off course you included some really useful info of other people's work,that not only are irrelevant to my ?'s but most people here,know,even experienced and have already read:thumbsup:
Not something new nor world braking discoveries,these days.Already there,for sometime and God bless the people who go into the trouble of sharing them.
So i'm talking about the tree and you are talking about the forest and even the lake in some cases.

I'll say one more time....
My questions to YOU were...
1.You stated that with the CR matt will see a better tank in time.
And i clearly asked how and why would a CR make his tank and corals look better.
I clearly didn't get any answer.

A CR will probably/maybe(if it matches his needs,f.e for me it didn't) make matt's life better regarding some routines etc but will not affect it's look or coral health.For Gods shake,there are amazing tanks who use balling or two part and longterm!
If you have solid proof/arguments and scientific reports that a CR will make our tanks/corals better,present them so all the reefing community will change their methods and use a CR.After all christmas are close and can always give an opportunity(excuse in most cases ) to buy something.
It's a totally different supporting the use a CR just because you like it or matches your needs and different suggesting/using/buying one to make your tank totm material.

And many people get the feeling from your writings you claim that every tank which uses two part/balling and not a CR are doomed to fail/crash sooner or later!!!
With what data/proof/records do you claim that?
You base that on your friends opinions(with no data too) and on top of it you call it "weird stn's"?
Really?Weird?If that stn's where due to balling or two part use,they would be called "ballings/two parts stn" and not "weird stn's".
Since our arguments are based in "friends opinions",i had a friend who blamed for his stn's,balling method....turned out he had asterina starfish(the bad sp).
Never went to the trouble of sharing it with the others in public....after all it's hard to be a prophet proven wrong.

In my humble opinion and experience,stn can have numerous reasons and causes.Even people using CR experience unexplained stn's.I could easily claim that a CR's material or something "weird cr related" is to blame.
But that would be a theory in the best case or witch/ghost hunting in the worst.
I won't do that because i'd be a fool.
Have nothing against old technology and how could i have,since i still use older methods in my tank.I have 4 litres of siporax in my sump and the second CR i owned is still in my storage room,just in case.Can't even believe i'm clearing this up:uhoh3:

Did you really asked me if i have personal experience with a CR?Really?:lolspin:
First of all i said before i used two different brands,for two years each....second i never express MY opinion based on other peoples exp/sayings/writings etc.
In my village we have a saying..."you cannot be/claim to be a man with another man's pair of 00's,grow your own pair to show your manhood":thumbsup:
Unless you are calling me a liar
Would be very happy to prove the opposite.
And because that certain subject feels like you are trying to prove whose acro is bigger,i'll gladly leave you live your fairy tail.

2.My second question was more a request but still very simple and clear.I asked to see some recent pics of your tank so we can see what results you got using a CR and no3 supplementing,or all the other stuff you mentioned.
Would love to see if doing the things you say and reading those articles,helped you create some nice big colonies out of small frags.
After all most people here are firm believers of ....."pics or it never happened":thumbsup:
Happy to see even your first tank,so we could have an idea of how sps demanding it was.
I bet the new one has some huge and demanding sps colonies.After all here is the sps forum.

Matt and all the other guys are kind enough to share their results regarding NO3 supplementing.Would love to see how your corals improved their health,colors and even growth rate too.

Matt and the other fellas who use this method,i really admire you for the trouble you go into,in order to share all the info with pics etc.
I also admire the risk you take and the willing to try new things/methods.
Haven't said it doesn't work or that it's bad in any way.
I personally wouldn't do that,it's my humble opinion because i feel that it would be like trying to wear a jacket in the summer just because it's new and opening the air condition to cool my self and stop sweating.It's more simple not to wear the jacket or wear it during the winter.I don't know if you get me
If bp or something else,creates problems with my no3 or po4, i'd prefer to follow the simpler way and stop the reactor than to do all that stuff no3 supplementing requires.
But that is just me and it doesn't mean my approach is the best/ideal.
Every tank and hobbyist is different.

Feeling so silly for all this rumbling!
I've read many times,many threads and posts with meaningless fights over relative things which stayed relative after everyone was bored and tired to beat the already dead horse:deadhorse:
No conclusions or discoveries were made.
In some ?'s the answers are simple....does saltwater need salt?Who can argue about that.No but's,maybe's,imho's etc
This thing i have a feeling that will go on for long and not only i've promised to myself not to participate in such "whose is bigger" debates but i spend 40 mins to wright this stuff:hammer:
Did it make me wiser,supper hobbyist,reef guru,richer or made my tank look better?No...so i prefer to spend my time finishing episode 13 in HALO or make a WC.

 

[markalot]

The calcium reactor argument ticks me off as well. I see just as many issues due to calcium reactor accidents as other ways of dosing and no solid evidence that melting old coral skeletons returns a balanced set of trace elements into the water column. The discussion goes back to 2002 or so.

In the end most *think* that while some trace elements are returned not all are and you still end up trying to decide what needs to be maintained and at what levels. One might posit that not using a calcium reactor might make it easier since numerous trace supplement solutions have been made to try and return what a tank typically uses up.

I really don't know, nor does anyone else unless I missed something.

 

[glaukos]

Some things of note since I pulled out the pellets and removed the small bits and then returned 400ml of mostly whole pellets to the reactor:
1). The pellets tumble very well when they are uniform in size.
2). Way less fines are ending up in the filter sock on the outlet of the reactor.
3). The sock is getting clogged with bacteria- it didn't do that before.
4). There is a mini cyano bloom in the SPS tank(only). The bacterial balance has shifted.

Agree with all your notes matt:thumbsup:
More or less had the same results.
I think i've mentioned it before in my thread but i'll mention it again now.
When i removed the amount of pellets that had melted in order to replace it with new,i closed them in a jar.Not on purpose but because i feared the smell from all the dead bacteria,like it happened when i replaced the NP in order to use the aio.
To my surprise when i opened the jar absolutely no smell came out from 200-250 ml which had been working for almost 5 months.
So those pellets had no bacteria on them when i removed them and maybe that had happened even when they were still in the tank.
So +1 on the shifted bacterial balanced you mentioned

As for the Cr i had ups and downs too buddy.
In order to be safe i was forced to test at least two times per week for kh and ca.
Even the flow was changing on the outlet.
I must admit though that the first cr was not from the expensive ones(can't remember the brand,i'll see my older pics) but the second one was/is a trustworthy korallin.
Tbh with the second one the ups and downs were not so frequent but still present.
Not to mention the trouble i had during the dialing in process.Took me almost a month just to get close to where i needed.
I always had a small,really small fear of the co2 cylinder too but it didn't haunt my dreams

What made me change to two part were the above and that,at least for me,maintenance was easier.
My only concern,regarding if it's a better choice,is when and IF my corals become really big.It might be more expensive.That's the only downside that worries me.As an equipment i feared both,because after all they are just equipments...any kind can fail you.

At the end of the day the choice is made according to the hobbyist's needs/routines/etc than to which one of them is better or ideal for the tank/corals.

Matt my friend,if i were you i would avoid the change(spending money,time,etc) but i'll still love you and admire your tank even if you do:beer:
People are more important than tanks or equipment choices!
After all it's your tank

+1 on mark
I really love and envy how pointed and short your post was buddy!
Wish i could sum it up that way too

 

[markalot]

On the Elos expert kit, which scale is PO4, the top or the bottom? I assume the bottom PO4^3 scale.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

On the Elos expert kit, which scale is PO4, the top or the bottom? I assume the bottom PO4^3 scale.

Bottom.

 

[mhucasey]

Well, a little more tissue loss today on the big colony as well as the echinata, so I had to so some surgery I tested Phosphates and was at 0.09 - which means that the 400Ml of good looking pellets aren't doing much. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Aquaforsest products, I'm giving something new a try.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Well, a little more tissue loss today on the big colony as well as the echinata, so I had to so some surgery I tested Phosphates and was at 0.09 - which means that the 400Ml of good looking pellets aren't doing much. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Aquaforsest products, I'm giving something new a try.

Matt , I hope tissue necrosis will stop after the surgery. I hate it when this happens.

Will you be keeping a detailed diary on how much you will be dosing each Aquaforest product? Would you mind giving a brief tutorial once you make satisfactory progress with them.

The colours of corals in some Polish tanks (e.g. Deborah's and Danian07's) are simply beyond this world.