Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[mhucasey]

*THIS*

a good calrx, with Cole parmer, or similar peri pump, carbondoser reg and reborn media = SPS wonderland.

In addition to switching to t5 lighting, this was the THE BEST thing I've ever done for my tank.

Its really a solution that addresses several issues - calcium, Alkalinity, and Trace elements. I've only heard negatives regarding the flow, and that is resolved with the peristaltic pump

 

[swk]

Its really a solution that addresses several issues - calcium, Alkalinity, and Trace elements. I've only heard negatives regarding the flow, and that is resolved with the peristaltic pump

The peri pump, coupled with a quality regulator gives you all the benefits of a calcium reactor, with the control and adjustability of 2 part dosing. Really is the perfect solution in my opinion. Only bummer is the tendency to reduce tank ph but the impact was pretty minimal in my setup and if it REALLY impacted the tank, or bothered me enough, the addition of kalkwasser can offset that easily.

 

[mhucasey]

Yeah I saw that in his thread and was confused at the time 2. What is the benefit of the stones over the bacteria and polymer dosing as I believe Damien and Deborah are doing? I guess I have more reading to do.

When dosing liquid Carbon, bacteria grow everywhere throughout the tank. Using a Zeolite media provides an Iron-rich high surface area location for the bacteria to grow. I tried Zeovit a couple of years ago and the stones plus the nitrogen/carbon source definitely work, it was just not capable of keeping up with the system I had at the time, I was very heavily stocked. The Zeolites may not be the best way to go - I'm still evaluating.

 

[Reefvet]

When dosing liquid Carbon, bacteria grow everywhere throughout the tank.

When dosing carbon you increase the population of beneficial bacteria where they are. In the water column and throughout the reef tank. You're simply feeding them. I expect you understand that but I comment to preface my reply to the next part of your post.

Using a Zeolite media provides an Iron-rich high surface area location for the bacteria to grow. I tried Zeovit a couple of years ago and the stones plus the nitrogen/carbon source definitely work, it was just not capable of keeping up with the system I had at the time, I was very heavily stocked. The Zeolites may not be the best way to go - I'm still evaluating.

Dose iron and provide a highly porous media like Siporax or Matrix and you'll provide the same opportunity to increase the beneficial bacteria as Zeolites.

There is no need to replace media as in the Zeo approach because the iron is being supplied independently of the media.

Rinse any surface detritus or algae accumulation monthly in tank water.

I've used this technique in our lab for 25 years.

 

[mhucasey]

When dosing carbon you increase the population of beneficial bacteria where they are. In the water column and throughout the reef tank. You're simply feeding them. I expect you understand that but I comment to preface my reply to the next part of your post.

I used Vinegar dosing for a while and while it worked to increase bacterial populations, often those populations were out in view. White film in all the shady spots was something I really disliked. That was where I was going with that comment.

Dose iron and provide a highly porous media like Siporax or Matrix and you'll provide the same opportunity to increase the beneficial bacteria as Zeolites.

There is no need to replace media as in the Zeo approach because the iron is being supplied independently of the media.

Rinse any surface detritus or algae accumulation monthly in tank water.

I've used this technique in our lab for 25 years.

That is a very interesting piece of information but I'm a little surprised. I had pieced together the need for iron with bacteria based systems, and seen the effect firsthand. I also saw what happens when the iron dose is too much. When I would discuss Iron in the forums I mostly got responses like "its good for macro algae but otherwise not needed". So for that piece of info that shows that Iron does have a role, thanks.

I did try the Zeovit system and stones and I do feel like there was more too it than carbon and iron dosing and a good surface. If there is one thing that the stones are good for, however, is for creating ignorance. They don't adsorb any appreciable amount of Ammonia, though this is the most common thing people say. They also don't bind and hold onto Phosphate as an adsorber like GFO. They also don't have pores that bacteria live inside. The pores are too small for Bacteria. I do know that they give off iron and a small amount of Manganese, and that they adsorb some Potassium.

I recently re-read a portion of the All-in-one biopellets thread, and I came across a post from the Manufacturer saying that the GFO within the pellet attracts, adsorbs and concentrates Phosphate, which then encourages bacterial growth on the pellet surface since there is carbohydrate present right there. The bacteria take up the phosphate from the surface and Nitrate from the water, then are sloughed off and skimmed out.

I dislike GFO for several reasons, but one of them was that it seemed to get saturated and stop working way too fast and phosphate would yo-yo up and down, even when used with regular pellets. On the All-in-One pellets my phosphate was at 0.00 for a almost a full year - even one Liter of pure GFO couldn't have done that for more than a few months. That leads me to believe that the GFO in the pellets does more than just bind phosphate like regular GFO.

I had envisioned that the surface of these zeolites was working the same way - iron is present at the surface of the zeolite, which attracts phosphate in the same way that the pellets do. Shaking the stones breaks loose a film of bacteria that can be skimmed out or consumed because of the size of the bacterial clumps. What do you think of this as a possible mechanism of action?

Putting aside the Zeovit company's mysteriousness and high prices, I think their system is more effective with the stones and the carbon source together. The genius in their system is that they dose carbon mixed with Nitrate. This forces the nutrient balance to be phosphate limited - they figured this out a long time back - and then kept mum on what the trick was. I've seen plenty of people try to make it work with only the carbon/nitrate source and fail.

My own experience with liquid carbon dosing was one of chasing Phosphate levels all over the place. That is why I hesitate to go to a pure liquid carbon dosing system. I want to keep phosphate levels low without using regular GFO, so my options are limited. I may not change at all, the Pellets work very well.

 

[slavetonet]

I too have been using ALL in One bio pellets since it was launched in Australia about 1 year ago.
I have to say it is the best thing ever invented for bio pellets.
I am dosing potassium phosphate back into my tank as I am P limited in my tank even with current setup.
NO3 at 5ppm and PO4 at 0.05ppm - which I like to keep it here. Maybe I will go lower NO3 after New Year, but it is a slow process.
No point dosing more bacterial in my system as I found I get RTN whenever I dose now. My theory is I am at a saturation point, anymore it only spells death to my sps corals.

 

[mhucasey]

I too have been using ALL in One bio pellets since it was launched in Australia about 1 year ago.
I have to say it is the best thing ever invented for bio pellets.
I am dosing potassium phosphate back into my tank as I am P limited in my tank even with current setup.
NO3 at 5ppm and PO4 at 0.05ppm - which I like to keep it here. Maybe I will go lower NO3 after New Year, but it is a slow process.
No point dosing more bacterial in my system as I found I get RTN whenever I dose now. My theory is I am at a saturation point, anymore it only spells death to my sps corals.

I have had great success with them, but I have noticed the issue where they need to be replaced rather than topped off - the small bits and partial pellets cause problems in my experience. With your additions of potassium phosphate, what effects did you see in your tank? Did the corals respond or are you more dialing in a specific nutrient number?

Probably the biggest reason for me considering other systems is that the pellets are really really easy. There is very little to do. That makes me want to experiment and try something new, just because it will be interesting and challenging. It's a mental disorder I think:jester:

 

[mhucasey]

One additional note on my thoughts about Zeolite systems - it's unfortunate that Zeovits business practices seem to shape more arguments than the science of what the system does. I've read a lot of posts by reef chemistry folks who just dismiss the zeolites as clever marketing without ever having handled the stones for themselves. I'm not including your post in that, ReefVet. It seems that a system used for this long with this many proponents should have been looked into more closely, some simple tests could verify whether the stones are doing anything other than costing you 15 bucks a liter.

 

[Reefvet]

I used Vinegar dosing for a while and while it worked to increase bacterial populations, often those populations were out in view. White film in all the shady spots was something I really disliked. That was where I was going with that comment.

I see. Did you reduce the carbon dosing and try to find a balance where the visible bacteria died off ?

Based on my experience I think you were past the effective level of dosing for your system. At that point I'd combine the liquid carbon dosing with another technique.

I had envisioned that the surface of these zeolites was working the same way - iron is present at the surface of the zeolite, which attracts phosphate in the same way that the pellets do. Shaking the stones breaks loose a film of bacteria that can be skimmed out or consumed because of the size of the bacterial clumps. What do you think of this as a possible mechanism of action?

When I tested the KZ manufactured Zeolites in 2005 I'd already been working with natural zeolites and other porous media + iron dosing and I found no advantage to the KZ product. In fact it was quite slow to develop any effective benefit to a closed system

There are 48 naturally occurring zeolites. KZ states that they employ 3 of these. I can only speculate but I believe that if you're using their entire system you're supporting the media by liquid carbon dosing and without the entire system the media are pretty impotent.

Your speculation below is what I found to be true.

Putting aside the Zeovit company's mysteriousness and high prices, I think their system is more effective with the stones and the carbon source together. The genius in their system is that they dose carbon mixed with Nitrate. This forces the nutrient balance to be phosphate limited - they figured this out a long time back - and then kept mum on what the trick was. I've seen plenty of people try to make it work with only the carbon/nitrate source and fail.

 

[mhucasey]

I see. Did you reduce the carbon dosing and try to find a balance where the visible bacteria died off ?

Based on my experience I think you were past the effective level of dosing for your system. At that point I'd combine the liquid carbon dosing with another technique.

Yes, I was trying to keep my phosphate levels very low, and the quantity of vinegar needed to do that just resulted in too much visible bacteria. I was very heavily stocked at the time. I started dosing Iron and saw some improvement, so I increased the dose a few more times. I woke up one morning after the largest iron dose with bacterial snot all over the tank. The STN on the corals started soon after.

I've sworn off regular GFO because no matter what kind I've tried It didn't provide the low levels of phosphate other people seem to get with it. Additionally, Ive lost three very expensive clams at three different times within an hour of adding well rinsed GFO(no other changes) to the system. My last try was with a resin bound GFO(PO4X4) but that had very little capacity and would stop working within a few days.

When I tested the KZ manufactured Zeolites in 2005 I'd already been working with natural zeolites and other porous media + iron dosing and I found no advantage to the KZ product. In fact it was quite slow to develop any effective benefit to a closed system

There are 48 naturally occurring zeolites. KZ states that they employ 3 of these. I can only speculate but I believe that if you're using their entire system you're supporting the media by liquid carbon dosing and without the entire system the media are pretty impotent.

Your speculation below is what I found to be true.

My experience was that after a long period of carbon dosing (with nitrate additions) using Vinegar and sometimes Vodka, there was a consistently nasty chunky skimmate formed. I switched over to Zeovit and within one day the skillet was thicker white, almost like meringue. I saw nuisance algae melt away in a week or two even though nutrient numbers only showed a small drop. Corals extended quite a bit and the overall look of the tank was very good. My problem was that every time I changed the stones or increased the flow through them, corals would start to STN. I was using as much of the stones as they recommended, but it wasn't able to fully handle my Bioload packed into that tank.

 

[slavetonet]

I have had great success with them, but I have noticed the issue where they need to be replaced rather than topped off - the small bits and partial pellets cause problems in my experience. With your additions of potassium phosphate, what effects did you see in your tank? Did the corals respond or are you more dialing in a specific nutrient number?

Probably the biggest reason for me considering other systems is that the pellets are really really easy. There is very little to do. That makes me want to experiment and try something new, just because it will be interesting and challenging. It's a mental disorder I think:jester:

I am mostly dosing it because of how the AIO bio pellets work.
It just stops reducing NO3 if there isnt enough PO4.
I know my system eats up 0.04~0.05ppm PO4 daily and is fairly consistence.
I have 13 fish in my 4ft tank.
6 large tangs ~ 12cm approx, 7 smaller fish ~ 5cm approx.
The corals seems to be doing alot better when there are reading of PO4.
Colours are nicer... :spin2:

 

[mhucasey]

I am mostly dosing it because of how the AIO bio pellets work.
It just stops reducing NO3 if there isnt enough PO4.
I know my system eats up 0.04~0.05ppm PO4 daily and is fairly consistence.
I have 13 fish in my 4ft tank.
6 large tangs ~ 12cm approx, 7 smaller fish ~ 5cm approx.
The corals seems to be doing alot better when there are reading of PO4.
Colours are nicer... :spin2:

Thanks for the info! My Nitrate value crept up to between 5 and 10 and has just stuck there. Nothing to worry about, but its nice to see that a little phosphate can be used to adjust it.

 

[Reefvet]

Yes, I was trying to keep my phosphate levels very low, and the quantity of vinegar needed to do that just resulted in too much visible bacteria. I was very heavily stocked at the time. I started dosing Iron and saw some improvement, so I increased the dose a few more times. I woke up one morning after the largest iron dose with bacterial snot all over the tank. The STN on the corals started soon after.

Wow, you were dosing VERY heavily to have that kind of reaction.

My experience was that after a long period of carbon dosing .... My problem was that every time I changed the stones or increased the flow through them, corals would start to STN. I was using as much of the stones as they recommended, but it wasn't able to fully handle my Bioload packed into that tank.

Using any Zeolite media I suggest that you only change a small percentage of it at a time, 25% max.

If you're going to switch to Aquaforest you'll find their Zeomix is much more powerful so you have to be very careful implementing it and changing it.

 

[slavetonet]

Wow, you were dosing VERY heavily to have that kind of reaction.




Using any Zeolite media I suggest that you only change a small percentage of it at a time, 25% max.

If you're going to switch to Aquaforest you'll find their Zeomix is much more powerful so you have to be very careful implementing it and changing it.

This is the thing I don't understand from all the zeolite.
If you are removing PO4 and NO3 too quickly, isn't there a solution to add it back into the tank? It sounds silly, but that is exactly what I am doing - dosing potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. To bring it back up to detectable level for the coral to keep on living. :bounce3:

 

[mhucasey]

Wow, you were dosing VERY heavily to have that kind of reaction.

Yes, well everyone makes mistakes:headwall blue: It became apparent to me that the tank had depleted Iron, and I had a small 10ml bottle of Zeovit Iron. I dosed some, noticed an increase in skimmer output, drop in PO4, so i dosed more, rinse and repeat. I had ordered a second bottle so I dumped the remaining few mLs in and the next day it looked like someone blew their nose all over the tank and corals.

Using any Zeolite media I suggest that you only change a small percentage of it at a time, 25% max.

If you're going to switch to Aquaforest you'll find their Zeomix is much more powerful so you have to be very careful implementing it and changing it.

Thats a good suggestion. I'm still not sure about whether to use the liquid carbon by itself or with porous media like Siporax, Zeolites, or a combination of both.

I do have good news in that I have moved up the timeline on getting a Calcium Reactor in the system, Hopefully I will be able to purchase one in the next couple of weeks:celeb1:

 

[mhucasey]

This is the thing I don't understand from all the zeolite.
If you are removing PO4 and NO3 too quickly, isn't there a solution to add it back into the tank? It sounds silly, but that is exactly what I am doing - dosing potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. To bring it back up to detectable level for the coral to keep on living. :bounce3:

Ideally by adjusting flow, volume of stones, and dose of Carbon, you keep the system with low levels of Nitrate, lower levels of phosphate, and then feed the corals as needed. In your case, the carbon source is always on- and therefore you either turn the reactor down or add back nutrients to keep the values low but not Zero. Both approaches work.

 

[Reefvet]

I'm still not sure about whether to use the liquid carbon by itself or with porous media like Siporax, Zeolites, or a combination of both.

Matrix from Seachem is another option. Readily available and cheaper. Close to Siporax but you need more of it to match capacity.

I just ordered 10L of Siporax from Germany because I've used it and know it but I wouldn't hesitate to use Matrix.

I do have good news in that I have moved up the timeline on getting a Calcium Reactor in the system, Hopefully I will be able to purchase one in the next couple of weeks:celeb1:

Congratulations! They are the ticket once you get it dialed in.

 

[discos]

I do have good news in that I have moved up the timeline on getting a Calcium Reactor in the system, Hopefully I will be able to purchase one in the next couple of weeks:celeb1:

Matt I am really enjoying reading your topic, if you change to a calcium reactor solution, with a good raw material as a media you will see a better tank in time. Highly suggested and it will be a great move. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

I am mostly dosing it because of how the AIO bio pellets work.
It just stops reducing NO3 if there isnt enough PO4.
I know my system eats up 0.04~0.05ppm PO4 daily and is fairly consistence.
I have 13 fish in my 4ft tank.
6 large tangs ~ 12cm approx, 7 smaller fish ~ 5cm approx.
The corals seems to be doing alot better when there are reading of PO4.
Colours are nicer... :spin2:

Sound to me it's working like the normal biopellets only in reverse. I have to add nitrates to keep PO4 low and actually manage to keep a bit of nitrate in my tank. The question here is, if you end up dosing NO3 or PO4 to get the same result in the end, why not to use the slower consumed normal biopellets and just add nitrates? Sounds less fuzzy :twitch:

 

[slavetonet]

Matt I am really enjoying reading your topic, if you change to a calcium reactor solution, with a good raw material as a media you will see a better tank in time. Highly suggested and it will be a great move. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:



Sound to me it's working like the normal biopellets only in reverse. I have to add nitrates to keep PO4 low and actually manage to keep a bit of nitrate in my tank. The question here is, if you end up dosing NO3 or PO4 to get the same result in the end, why not to use the slower consumed normal biopellets and just add nitrates? Sounds less fuzzy :twitch:

I was using normal bio pellets in the past. They could never reduce the PO4 quick enough. Always needing GFO to control the PO4 - which was annoying as too much, **** happens, too little - the PO4 creeps. As well it was getting expensive quick and have to have another reactor for it.
Now with AIO bio pellets - only 1 reactor is needed. All I do now is tweak it by dosing nutrients back in - very controlled small dosage all day long.
Amazing what you can achieve with this method.
Sometimes in this hobby, you just need to think outside the box. :dance:

 

[glaukos]

Matt I am really enjoying reading your topic, if you change to a calcium reactor solution, with a good raw material as a media you will see a better tank in time. Highly suggested and it will be a great move. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

Sound to me it's working like the normal biopellets only in reverse. I have to add nitrates to keep PO4 low and actually manage to keep a bit of nitrate in my tank. The question here is, if you end up dosing NO3 or PO4 to get the same result in the end, why not to use the slower consumed normal biopellets and just add nitrates? Sounds less fuzzy :twitch:

Why would matt see a better tank in time using a CR?:sad2:
In my humble opinion his tank looks awesome the way he runs it atm.
Colors and coral growth are already amazing!
Will the use of a CR improve colors or growth?
Maybe in the future it will improve/make easier his routines and match up the consumptions easier-when his corals will be huge- but a CR won't make his tank look better:thumbsup:
But if there are some unknown reasons that a CR would make corals look better i'd love to know them,so i could make my own tank look better too.

At least in my book being forced(in way) to throw NO3 in the tank,is not less fuzzy at all.
It's less fuzzy to reduce the amount of BP's(AIO or classic NP,or whatever else) or flow in the reactor,or even stop the use of BP's,in order to allow NO3 to increase,than being above the tank and throw manually every day NO3 or spending more money for a dosing pump devoted to NO3.
And what if(for some reason) you fail to implement longterm or short term No3?
Tank crashes since it might be the only food source?
I like the idea,as we never stop experimenting and trying new things(or using again old methods) but that doesn't mean that they are less fuzzy or relaxing/ideal.
This might be just me because i want to deal with the tank and it's routines as less as possible.
Some wise fella(can't remember his nickname) had as a signature "there is a fine line between owning a reef tank and a reef tank owning you".

I'd love to see the results you are getting with your tank/corals using what you mentioned in your post.

p.s
Matt needless to say i have no objection in you buying a CR buddy.You know your tank better and you know the reasons you took that desicion.Hope the new toy will arrive soon and plug it on with no issues:beer:
Every method -two part,CR,etc- has it's pros and cons and i'm sure you know them already.

After all these months what do you think,did raising your lights helped corals improve their colors a bit?