Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[GSMclowns]

My old 90-gallon was exclusively SPS, four years old. It went through 125 mL of calcium and alkalinity a day on Fauna Marin balling. I had to replace 2 liters of saltwater with RO per week or the SG would creep up as chloride ions would build up so bad and increase SG. I started doing the big water changes to flush out the chloride. I'd usually do 75%. I matched temp, pH (close), cal, alk, Mg, and potassium. The response from the corals was within an hour. Color also increased within a few days. It got so that I'd look at the tank and be able to tell it needed a flush. This is one area where a calcium reactor wins imo.

Btw, I'm switching to Aquaforest in the new year too.

Sorry but I don't quite understand this whole idea about chloride accumulating and raising the salinity level in the tank. So if I have been dosing 2 parts (BRS Calcium Chloride + BRS Sodium Carbonate) for Alk and Cal, the Chloride would accumulate over time and raise the whole tank salinity level higher? I have been dosing those chemicals for the last 7 years but so far my salinity always stay the same. I change about 15% water a week in my tank.

The only way to tell the there are excessive Chloride in the tank is by measuring salinity of the tank right? or is there any other way to test it?
How can you tell if Chloride is too high and need to flush it?

Can someone with more knowledge on this matter help explain this to me

Thanks

 

[Myka]

In layman's terms (and thus not entirely accurate)...

In a closed system where we're dosing large amount of Calcium chloride, sodium (bi)carbonate, and Magnesium chloride (some Mg sulfate too usually) there becomes a build up of the main ions - chloride and sodium. In a natural reef there are many, many billions of gallons of saltwater that are constantly "flushing" the corals with "fresh" cal, alk, Mg. There is no way the corals could deplete the oceans. Since our systems are closed, we're packing a large number of high-demand corals into a tiny, tiny relative volume of water, so we have to add and add and add the cal, alk, and mg. The corals don't use up the chloride and sodium so it builds up.

Both chloride and sodium are within the measurement of salinity and specific gravity. The SG of the dosing containers is much saltier than the aquarium, so as more and more is pumped into the tank the SG slowly increases along with the build up of the chloride and sodium. Since you add RO to keep the tank from getting too salty, the chloride and sodium ions are replacing the other salts in the SG mix.

Of course, this only happens if the tank is packed with SPS. So it doesn't usually happen until the tank is a few years old.

 

[GSMclowns]

Myka, Thanks for explaining that..
So a simple solution to this issue would be taking some of the tank water out and replace it with RODI. OR when I change water, I just mix the new fresh salt water at a lower salinity level than the tank water?

Sorry Mhucasey for hijacking your thread.

 

[Myka]

Oh, and to continue on a bit more advanced...

"Balling methods" take this ionic imbalance into consideration and will provide a "chloride-free salt" which is an additive much like calcium and alkalinity that contains all the other salts that make up reef salt.

For more info, read What is seawater? by Randy Holmes-Farley. Start reading at "The Big Four Ions".

 

[Myka]

Myka, Thanks for explaining that..
So a simple solution to this issue would be taking some of the tank water out and replace it with RODI. OR when I change water, I just mix the new fresh salt water at a lower salinity level than the tank water?

Sorry Mhucasey for hijacking your thread.

Yes, that would solve the problem. Like I said though, only really high-demand tanks will have this problem. If you don't have it, then you don't have to fix it. This is a good reason to check tank SG before doing a water change. Lots of people kind of forget about the tank itself, and never measure it.

 

[Myka]

Regarding the pellets,AIO didn't work for me either buddy.They didn't do any harm at anything but they weren't so plug n play as i thought they were,compared to the good old classic NP.
The material was melting ,leaving behind only the gfo.In my case no3 were rising but po4 were 0 because of the gfo's presence.
So when i added more quantity to keep in check no3's levels i added more gfo too which striped my water from po4 even more and that's not a good thing(at least in my case and for my tank).

Have you guys tried using, say, a 50/50 mix of classic BP and AIO BP? I know a few people doing this, and they've made up a "perfect recipe" for their tank. I know they tumble a bit differently when mixed. I haven't tried the AIO pellets because I'm too scared of the GFO dust getting into the tank/sump, plus I just don't like GFO in the tank at all.

 

[markalot]

Have you guys tried using, say, a 50/50 mix of classic BP and AIO BP? I know a few people doing this, and they've made up a "perfect recipe" for their tank. I know they tumble a bit differently when mixed. I haven't tried the AIO pellets because I'm too scared of the GFO dust getting into the tank/sump, plus I just don't like GFO in the tank at all.

I'm doing this but the presence of the other pellets seems to be breaking down the AIO even faster. I have GFO dust all over the place.

 

[Myka]

Sorry for all the posts guys! It's just that I'm reading the last 10 pages (haven't been keeping up lately) and there is some great reef nerd talk going on here, and I can't miss out on that!!!! :bounce2:

Hey, check out this "ionic imbalance" calculator. I have no idea if it's accurate or not, but it's pretty cool. https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/TwoPartImbalance.php

I'm doing this but the presence of the other pellets seems to be breaking down the AIO even faster. I have GFO dust all over the place.

Hmm, well that's no good. I haven't heard that yet.

I have used Kalk in the top-off before, the only issue was that the evaporation rate isn't constant in the tank and I had some problems keeping the ALK value steady when combining this with the 2-part.

Put kalk on a doser. That's what I do. 3-head doser - cal, alk, and kalk. I just add a bit of Mg to my WC water, and it keeps up fine.

 

[Myka]

Ok, I finally caught up to the end of the thread and see your WC with the new Aquaforest salt! EXCITING! I'll be watching this thread more closely.

Matt, do you think that since the salt contains the NP Pro (carbon source), that the Pro Bio S (bacteria) aren't needed since there is bacteria in the (probiotic) salt already? I'm just wondering, since we can only get the salt in Canada right now, not any other additives.

 

[mhucasey]

In layman's terms (and thus not entirely accurate)...

In a closed system where we're dosing large amount of Calcium chloride, sodium (bi)carbonate, and Magnesium chloride (some Mg sulfate too usually) there becomes a build up of the main ions - chloride and sodium. In a natural reef there are many, many billions of gallons of saltwater that are constantly "flushing" the corals with "fresh" cal, alk, Mg. There is no way the corals could deplete the oceans. Since our systems are closed, we're packing a large number of high-demand corals into a tiny, tiny relative volume of water, so we have to add and add and add the cal, alk, and mg. The corals don't use up the chloride and sodium so it builds up.

Both chloride and sodium are within the measurement of salinity and specific gravity. The SG of the dosing containers is much saltier than the aquarium, so as more and more is pumped into the tank the SG slowly increases along with the build up of the chloride and sodium. Since you add RO to keep the tank from getting too salty, the chloride and sodium ions are replacing the other salts in the SG mix.

Of course, this only happens if the tank is packed with SPS. So it doesn't usually happen until the tank is a few years old.

To further this, if you add exactly equal parts of ingredients with chloride ions with ingredients with sodium ions, the net effect is sodium and chloride in balance, i.e. salt water. Skimming can remove salt to compensate, or some salt water can be removed and replaced with RO to keep salinity stable. The problem comes in when there are more chloride containing ingredients being added compared to sodium containing ingredients, i.e. Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, strontium chloride, etc. The more this gets out of balance, the worse the effects. Thats why you should dose 2-part in equal quantities as much as possible.

 

[mhucasey]

Ok, I finally caught up to the end of the thread and see your WC with the new Aquaforest salt! EXCITING! I'll be watching this thread more closely.

Matt, do you think that since the salt contains the NP Pro (carbon source), that the Pro Bio S (bacteria) aren't needed since there is bacteria in the (probiotic) salt already? I'm just wondering, since we can only get the salt in Canada right now, not any other additives.

The salt doesn't have the NP Pro carbon source, but it has vitamins, bacteria, and probiotics(which is a carbon source). The amount in the salt is just enough to kick start the bacteria, but it doesn't replace the need to dose the NP Pro moving forward.

Right now I have my biopellet reactor down to a trickle, and I'm dosing the NP pro and the ProBio S at half doses(4 drops each). Mo said to look for bubbles on the rocks as a sign of overdosing, so I'll watch for this. I'll take the BP reactor off line in the next few days and then add the zeolites next week. From there ill ramp up the dose if needed.

I have made 4 batches of the salt now, each batch mixed clear within 10-15 minutes and was spot on for SG each time. The Alk and Calcium matched the provided test specs, so I'm happy with the salt. The corals don't show any signs of irritation and show great polyp extension after each WC as well, which is not always the case with other salts. So far so good

 

[mhucasey]

Have you guys tried using, say, a 50/50 mix of classic BP and AIO BP? I know a few people doing this, and they've made up a "perfect recipe" for their tank. I know they tumble a bit differently when mixed. I haven't tried the AIO pellets because I'm too scared of the GFO dust getting into the tank/sump, plus I just don't like GFO in the tank at all.

When i first transitioned to the all in one pellets from the NP pro, i left some of the original pellets in. Its a Pain in the butt as far as I'm concerned. The NP pellets are so much lighter that they just blow around above the AIO pellets. After a couple of days I just picked them out and have used AIO only since then. The key for AIO is to pull out half the pellets and replace them with new pellets every 3 or 4 months, sifting out any bits. Since I cleaned up my batch they don't put off the same amount of fines and after a few days, they started reducing nutrients again.

 

[mhucasey]

Myka, Thanks for explaining that..
So a simple solution to this issue would be taking some of the tank water out and replace it with RODI. OR when I change water, I just mix the new fresh salt water at a lower salinity level than the tank water?

Sorry Mhucasey for hijacking your thread.

Feel free to hijack at any time - as long as the subject isn't the Patriots:hammer:

 

[Myka]

The salt doesn't have the NP Pro carbon source, but it has vitamins, bacteria, and probiotics(which is a carbon source). The amount in the salt is just enough to kick start the bacteria, but it doesn't replace the need to dose the NP Pro moving forward.

Sorry, I meant the little 10 mL bottle of the NP Pro. It's included within the bucket of salt, not within the salt itself.

Right now I have my biopellet reactor down to a trickle, and I'm dosing the NP pro and the ProBio S at half doses(4 drops each). Mo said to look for bubbles on the rocks as a sign of overdosing, so I'll watch for this. I'll take the BP reactor off line in the next few days and then add the zeolites next week. From there ill ramp up the dose if needed.

I have made 4 batches of the salt now, each batch mixed clear within 10-15 minutes and was spot on for SG each time. The Alk and Calcium matched the provided test specs, so I'm happy with the salt. The corals don't show any signs of irritation and show great polyp extension after each WC as well, which is not always the case with other salts. So far so good

That sounds like a great plan. I remember reading somewhere (The Aquaforest forum??) where I think it was RHF said to be careful with the Aquaforest zeolites because they are more effective. In the past, I've found Zeovit zeolites to be fairly mild, so I'm interested to see your experiences while I wait (im)patiently for them to all be available in Canada.

 

[mhucasey]

Sorry, I meant the little 10 mL bottle of the NP Pro. It's included within the bucket of salt, not within the salt itself.

Oh, yes there are a few different bacterial strains they sell, the one for ULNS reefs is the ProBio S. Its a maintenance dosing thing like Zeovit, but way cheaper. The 10Ml bottle is 10 bucks and max dose for my system(195gallons) is 7 drops per day.

That sounds like a great plan. I remember reading somewhere (The Aquaforest forum??) where I think it was RHF said to be careful with the Aquaforest zeolites because they are more effective. In the past, I've found Zeovit zeolites to be fairly mild, so I'm interested to see your experiences while I wait (im)patiently for them to all be available in Canada.

I used the Zeovit stones and had a lot of issues with STN when I used the recommended amount. For Zeovit I would use almost 2L of stones for this tank if i remember correctly. I only plan on using 300Ml sones for this system. I'm being very conservative. Pawel uses 2L for 1400L system as a comparison. 10 Bucks for a liter of Zeolites that will last me 18 weeks is way cheaper than Zeovit, and Aquaforest doesn't require the stones for the system to work.

 

[nemodan]

Hi Matt

I was reading about this probiotic salt and all comments were always positive. I am using Reef Crystals now and decided to order a bucket of 22 Kg of the probiotic salt. It will be arriving next Tuesday.

The worst would be I do not see any effect, but there is nothing negative I have found to give it a try. WC will be once a week so the replacement will be slowly.

The 22 kg bucked will made arround 150 US Gallons, correct ? Is that what you are getting ?

Cheers
Daniel

 

[scrapz]

Interested in seeing the results. Thanks for documenting.

BTW, where did you get the AF products?

 

[westreef]

Interested in seeing the results. Thanks for documenting.

BTW, where did you get the AF products?

You can get them from Salty Supply.

 

[mhucasey]

Hi Matt

I was reading about this probiotic salt and all comments were always positive. I am using Reef Crystals now and decided to order a bucket of 22 Kg of the probiotic salt. It will be arriving next Tuesday.

The worst would be I do not see any effect, but there is nothing negative I have found to give it a try. WC will be once a week so the replacement will be slowly.

The 22 kg bucked will made arround 150 US Gallons, correct ? Is that what you are getting ?

Cheers
Daniel

I don't think it lists the amount it makes, but based on the spec it would make 145 gallons at 33ppt salinity, and if I calculate right, 136.8 gallons at 35ppt.

 

[tripdad]

Hello Matt, did you find a good source of info and explanation on the Aquaforest "system"? I looked at their website but it leaves a little to be desired as far as a "recipe" to follow.