Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[paszembe]

Hi Matt,
do you monitor Redox in your tank?
I've found that when I was using other salts in the past after each WC my redox droped from 400 to 280 and than slowly climbed it's way to 400 all the week, but while using AF Reef Salt the drop is way smaller and it's back to 400 a lot faster..

Not sure if it's important but just an observation I've made.
regards
Pawel

 

[mhucasey]

Hello Matt, did you find a good source of info and explanation on the Aquaforest "system"? I looked at their website but it leaves a little to be desired as far as a "recipe" to follow.

Have you looked at their guide? They post it in their sponsor forum here. Part of the deal with them is that they are not as rigid as some others like Zeovit. The basic bacterial supplement plus carbon source is the only thing that is required(NP pro and ProBio S). You can use zeolites if you want, or not. They also sell GFO as an alternative for keeping PO4 low. One user here on RC uses zeolites, GFO, and Carbon in one reactor.

They then have a range of supplements for enhancing growth and coloration. Each one is described in the guide. The supplements are significantly cheaper than similar supplements by Zeovit, that was one of the things that attracted me to their system.

 

[mhucasey]

Hi Matt,
do you monitor Redox in your tank?
I've found that when I was using other salts in the past after each WC my redox droped from 400 to 280 and than slowly climbed it's way to 400 all the week, but while using AF Reef Salt the drop is way smaller and it's back to 400 a lot faster..

Not sure if it's important but just an observation I've made.
regards
Pawel

It looks like mine dropped some, but I'm not sure how good the ORP probe is:

It also looks like PH crested higher yesterday but dipped lower this morning:

 

[glaukos]

In layman's terms (and thus not entirely accurate)...

In a closed system where we're dosing large amount of Calcium chloride, sodium (bi)carbonate, and Magnesium chloride (some Mg sulfate too usually) there becomes a build up of the main ions - chloride and sodium. In a natural reef there are many, many billions of gallons of saltwater that are constantly "flushing" the corals with "fresh" cal, alk, Mg. There is no way the corals could deplete the oceans. Since our systems are closed, we're packing a large number of high-demand corals into a tiny, tiny relative volume of water, so we have to add and add and add the cal, alk, and mg. The corals don't use up the chloride and sodium so it builds up.

Both chloride and sodium are within the measurement of salinity and specific gravity. The SG of the dosing containers is much saltier than the aquarium, so as more and more is pumped into the tank the SG slowly increases along with the build up of the chloride and sodium. Since you add RO to keep the tank from getting too salty, the chloride and sodium ions are replacing the other salts in the SG mix.

Of course, this only happens if the tank is packed with SPS. So it doesn't usually happen until the tank is a few years old.

So mindy from what i understood,the only downside from that ionic imbalance which is formed,is an increase in SG something which can be handled easily if we pay i bit more attention to our SG daily or as the years go by.
Am i right or did i get something wrong?
Just a SG increase.....not some "weird stn's" as it was "guru-ly" stated before or tanks destined to fail or crash.

Tbh i have had the same exp like what Bao(GSMclowns) mentioned.Been using two part for years and never witnessed a rise in SG.

Thanks for the info:beer:

Have you guys tried using, say, a 50/50 mix of classic BP and AIO BP? I know a few people doing this, and they've made up a "perfect recipe" for their tank. I know they tumble a bit differently when mixed. I haven't tried the AIO pellets because I'm too scared of the GFO dust getting into the tank/sump, plus I just don't like GFO in the tank at all.

Thank you very much for spending time to give some advice on that.
Have already tried it and got the same results as matt did(NP floating above aio and the ones that stayed bellow where blocked from the aio,something that didn't allow the water to pass/flow easily through the chamber) and went back to NP in my case.
Maybe it's due the the fact that my MI reactor is relatively small and with,a not so strong pump.
Been thinking a bit about gfo lately but i'm hearing /reading mixed opinions.

Matt buddy sorry too for the hijacking :love1:

 

[mhucasey]

So mindy from what i understood,the only downside from that ionic imbalance which is formed,is an increase in SG something which can be handled easily if we pay i bit more attention to our SG daily or as the years go by.
Am i right or did i get something wrong?
Just a SG increase.....not some "weird stn's" as it was "guru-ly" stated before or tanks destined to fail or crash.

Tbh i have had the same exp like what Bao(GSMclowns) mentioned.Been using two part for years and never witnessed a rise in SG.

Thanks for the info:beer:


Thank you very much for spending time to give some advice on that.
Have already tried it and got the same results as matt did(NP floating above aio and the ones that stayed bellow where blocked from the aio,something that didn't allow the water to pass/flow easily through the chamber) and went back to NP in my case.
Maybe it's due the the fact that my MI reactor is relatively small and with,a not so strong pump.
Been thinking a bit about gfo lately but i'm hearing /reading mixed opinions.

Matt buddy sorry too for the hijacking :love1:

The issue is that when the chloride is not balanced with sodium ions the excess chloride may cause issues in the tank. Rest assured, if you are dosing two-part you are slowly raising the salinity of your tank. You may not notice it because you are removing the excess salt with your skimmer. I went one year without adding salt to my tank with stable salinity, at the same time I removed a large amount of salt water with the skimmer. If the two part wasn't raising the salinity, the sg would have dropped.

If you add the two parts of two part together, you get saltwater with calcium carbonate.

 

[glaukos]

That makes sense,thanks matt!

Hey you never told me what's the angel that stole your heart
Large or dwarf?

 

[mhucasey]

The Regal Angel? Its a 4 inch Regal that My LFS has been quarantining for me, hopefully it comes home with me next week

 

[glaukos]

Hope it will arrive soon and well!Great choice of fish bud:beer:
Lots of personality in him/her!
Having my finger crossed for you regarding his model citizenship!

 

[reefmutt]

Well, Matt your pioneering ways have become infectious. I see Dan ordered the AF probiotic salt, as did Mindy..... Well, add me to the list.. Ordered it this morning.
I'm saying I'm going to wait and watch what happens to your tank but who knows.. I'm getting so frustrated with cyano, bryopsis, bubble algae and whatever else, I may just try the pro bio and the NP as well.. Not sure yet..
Curious to see how the reef reacts to the new salt, at least.

 

[mhucasey]

Hope it will arrive soon and well!Great choice of fish bud:beer:
Lots of personality in him/her!
Having my finger crossed for you regarding his model citizenship!

Me too, the Regals are pretty good with everything but some LPS and clams, but you never know:fish1:

 

[mhucasey]

Well, Matt your pioneering ways have become infectious. I see Dan ordered the AF probiotic salt, as did Mindy..... Well, add me to the list.. Ordered it this morning.
I'm saying I'm going to wait and watch what happens to your tank but who knows.. I'm getting so frustrated with cyano, bryopsis, bubble algae and whatever else, I may just try the pro bio and the NP as well.. Not sure yet..
Curious to see how the reef reacts to the new salt, at least.

I can't speak for the whole system at this point, but you won't be disappointed with the salt. It's quality stuff for sure.

 

[mhucasey]

Whew. 5th and final water change completed tonight. All told I changed out about 120 gallons of water from a 195gallon system. Corals and fish are doing well, no ill effects from the change. There was a slight cloudiness in the evening that looked like a small bacterial bloom. Here are some pictures of the tank for reference:

And some of the corals, the colors on some of these are really coming along!

 

[Big E]

Sorry but I don't quite understand this whole idea about chloride accumulating and raising the salinity level in the tank. So if I have been dosing 2 parts (BRS Calcium Chloride + BRS Sodium Carbonate) for Alk and Cal, the Chloride would accumulate over time and raise the whole tank salinity level higher? I have been dosing those chemicals for the last 7 years but so far my salinity always stay the same. I change about 15% water a week in my tank.

The only way to tell the there are excessive Chloride in the tank is by measuring salinity of the tank right? or is there any other way to test it?
How can you tell if Chloride is too high and need to flush it?

Can someone with more knowledge on this matter help explain this to me

Thanks

Since you're doing 15% water change a week it's a non-issue for you. Chances are you don't need to do the Mg dosing part. I do 10% water change a week and don't dose Mg.

Read this---roll down to the residue sections. The solution Randy designed is similar to commercial concentrated liquids.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

[sahin]

Since you're doing 15% water change a week it's a non-issue for you. Chances are you don't need to do the Mg dosing part. I do 10% water change a week and don't dose Mg.

Read this---roll down to the residue sections. The solution Randy designed is similar to commercial concentrated liquids.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

+1

I've been doing 10-15% weekly water changes and that is sufficient. Its worked for me for the past decade and more.

 

[nemodan]

Matt, the tank look great as well as the colors of those corals you posted above.

The WC was pretty big. You are brave !!! Of doing that in almost 1 shoot. I will start doing it following my WC schedule, so it will take weeks.

About the Aquaforest full system, I am not sure if I ever will be able to implement it. Yesterday night I was reading their guide and there are many supplements you have to add a drop per day. With my travel schedules that will put another burden over my wife that she also has to take care of 5 dogs, 2 parrots, 2 freshwater tanks and my reef/fuge tanks feeding....... LOL.... Crazy house mine.... LOL.

I started my 65G tank using Petco Ocean Water. It had a final volume of 50G after rocks and sand. I was changing a box (5G) per week. The Box price is almost $12. When I started with my nutrients issue, one of the changes was to do more frequent WC. On top of that, I was not sure if something changed on the ocean water quality, so I switched to Reef Crystal and installed my RODI system.

During the time I used the Petco ocean water, polyp extension during the day was amazing. The coral growth was exponential. In a few months mini colonies were big colonies. I NEVER had again that day light polyp extension. Corals stop dying, colors came back, in most, others still not there with all my changes. But, I am SURE there was something in the ocean water that Reef Crystal salt do not have. I wasn't adding any supplements for corals at the time of the ocean water, neither I do it now.

So, my rational, after reading more about this probiotic salt, and following your thread, is that "could be" this salt will have something that will make it "more similar" to the ocean water, and I can recover something of what I lost in my corals.

I DO NOT REGRET the tank I have now. I am more than happy with this challeng of keeping SPS for the first time in my life, but as a biologist, that spend every free minute in front of the tank with a magnifying glass, enjoying the life inside of it, I have to tell you that the corals now are far away of what they were in Petco ocean water. They are good, as you saw in my pictures, but not yet how they were when I was using the Ocean Water from Petco.

Why I do not return to the ocean water ?

Well, for my actual routine of ~ 20 G weekly water changes, it will be too expensive ($12 x 4 boxes= $48 / week) . The 200 G box of Reef Cristals is $50. On top of that I cannot control how that ocean water is processed, so I am adding another potential point of issues. At least I can control how I do my salt water.

The probiotic salt is more expensive than Reef Crystals but less expensive than the Petco Ocean Water.

All these rational pushed me to order the probiotic salt and start to use it slowly and see if, at least with the salt alone (not the full system), I can see some of the past characteristics of my corals coming back.

Keep posting Matt. Pictures are better than a thousand words. And as many others, I iam following this thread in detail.

Cheers
Daniel

 

[reefmutt]

Corals are looking good Matt!
What are the products you are going to start using from AF?
I know you have the pro bio s and np pro going.. What's next?
When do you think the aio pellets will be completely off?

Dan, I have never seen a tank using real ocean water do poorly.. There is definitely something in Mother Nature's water that is magic.
I have heard that the evaporated salts like H2ocean and Red Sea salts MAY contain some natural bacteria since the salts are not produced in a lab.. But I guess we don't know what types of bacteria. At least the AF salt has specific bacteria deliberately added to it.

 

[shih87]

+1

I've been doing 10-15% weekly water changes and that is sufficient. Its worked for me for the past decade and more.

Same here. 10% water change weekly but only siphon bottom every other week. These work great for me, but I also buy some fresh live rock, crash them, remove stuff I don't want, then add to display tank for 2 weeks once 9 months to a year depend on if when I can get some nice rock.

 

[nemodan]

Corals are looking good Matt!
What are the products you are going to start using from AF?
I know you have the pro bio s and np pro going.. What's next?
When do you think the aio pellets will be completely off?

Dan, I have never seen a tank using real ocean water do poorly.. There is definitely something in Mother Nature's water that is magic.
I have heard that the evaporated salts like H2ocean and Red Sea salts MAY contain some natural bacteria since the salts are not produced in a lab.. But I guess we don't know what types of bacteria. At least the AF salt has specific bacteria deliberately added to it.

Yes....and not only bacterias. The list of additives that AF have in the batch certificate are very important for coral health. If a company risks to provide a certificate of what their salt have, for me that is very important. Matt did some measurements and they were on spot with the certificate. AF cannot risk that I do a full water analysis, not expensive with today's technologies, and post that AF isn't telling the true in the certificate.

Daniel

 

[Myka]

Oh, yes there are a few different bacterial strains they sell, the one for ULNS reefs is the ProBio S.

Did you get that info from the guide or them directly? I couldn't make much sense of the bacteria/carbon sources in the guide.

So mindy from what i understood,the only downside from that ionic imbalance which is formed,is an increase in SG something which can be handled easily if we pay i bit more attention to our SG daily or as the years go by.
Am i right or did i get something wrong?
Just a SG increase.....not some "weird stn's" as it was "guru-ly" stated before or tanks destined to fail or crash.

Well, the most important thing, IMO, is that the chloride and sodium ions are replacing other ions in the salt mix. In seawater (and hopefully in our salt mixes), chloride and sodium make up about 84% of the ions, and the rest is magnesium and sulfate mainly, but also 4% "other stuff" (calcium, potassium, strontium, borate,lithium, barium, iron, zinc, organics, etc). So say you have a build up of chloride and sodium and it becomes 86% of the ions, then (assuming magnesium, calcium, potassium, strontium and and other stuff we test for is relatively "normal") you will have 2% less (or half) the borate, lithium, barium, iron, zinc, organics, etc ions. THAT is what matters, IMO.

 

[mhucasey]

Did you get that info from the guide or them directly? I couldn't make much sense of the bacteria/carbon sources in the guide

I got the info from the guide and they recommended ProBio S and Np Pro for my specific tank since it's already established.
For fish only tanks, soft coral and LPS tanks, you use the "Bio S" bacterial strain, which seems heavy on the nitrifying bacterial strains, for SPS tanks you use "ProBio S" which is nitrifying and phosphate reducing bacteria. They also have "ProBio F" which are bacterioplankton - this would be added to SPS tank once established to provide a food source for SPS.

The carbon source is Np Pro in all cases.