Miracle Mud or Fiji Mud or neither

[dkeller_nc]

tmz: Just a minor note: there's no such thing as a "facultative aerobe". Bacteria are either obligate aerobes, facultative anaerobes, or obligate anaerobes. The usage of "facultative aerobe" has showed up in web postings and such over the last 5 to 10 years, but it's not an accepted term by the scientific community. Not a big deal, but if you want to use the correct terminology, the above is right.

Regarding dinitrification, it is quite true that bacteria will not use nitrate as an electron acceptor in the presence of oxygen, so dinitrification requires at least anoxic conditions. But denitrification is carried out by both facultative anaerobes as well as obligate anaerobes (different species, of course), so it will take place in both anoxic and anaerobic environments.

d2mini: To answer the question on "how do you change/add the mud if it's under sand/gravel", what I did in my freshwater riverine tank was to remove the fish, then dug out about 1/3 of the total tank bottom area to the bare glass. Then I replaced the layers with fresh mud & sand, replanted the vegetation and replaced the fish once the water had cleared up. Not exactly a fun way to spend a Saturday, but you only need to do it about once every one or two years depending on the plant density.

 

[d2mini]

D2mini

Thanks for the link . I enjoyed the video . I have the following observations fwiw:

Cool, glad you enjoyed it. It's definitely one of my favorites. It's always nice to SEE a tank, but getting all the little details and behind the scenes stuff described by the owner is awesome, regardless of who it is.

As to the hlle or other diseases, i have nooooo idea. But that's definitely not the first time I've heard of it's healing properties.

d2mini: To answer the question on "how do you change/add the mud if it's under sand/gravel", what I did in my freshwater riverine tank was to remove the fish, then dug out about 1/3 of the total tank bottom area to the bare glass. Then I replaced the layers with fresh mud & sand, replanted the vegetation and replaced the fish once the water had cleared up. Not exactly a fun way to spend a Saturday, but you only need to do it about once every one or two years depending on the plant density.

Thanks!

Now what I'm still curious about is the Fiji Mud.
Everyone here has been talking about the Miracle Mud. The Fiji, from what I've read seems to act a bit differently. Does anyone have any info or experience with this one?

 

[tmz]

tmz: Just a minor note: there's no such thing as a "facultative aerobe". Bacteria are either obligate aerobes, facultative anaerobes, or obligate anaerobes. The usage of "facultative aerobe" has showed up in web postings and such over the last 5 to 10 years, but it's not an accepted term by the scientific community. Not a big deal, but if you want to use the correct terminology, the above is right.

You are right it's not a big deal , I'm sure you are trying to be precise but since you made a point of it . The term facultative aerobe and facultative anerobe is properly used interchageably according to the four sources linked below ,which include: a medical dictionary, wikepedia, an on line biology text and another generic academic q and a site ;there are others: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/nutgro_4.html
http://www.funnelbrain.com/c-291712-facultative-aerobes.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_obligate_aerobes_differ_from_facultative_aerobes
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/facultative+aerobes

 

[Timfish]

I'm sold on mud but I don't think brand matters that much. This tank was set up with a combination of Steve Tyree's Zonal methodology and Leng Sy's mud methodology and no skimmer. It had both lighted and cryptic refugiums including the lighted "mud" refugium which was about 6/10ths the foot print of the display tank. It took over 3 years for the phosphates to build up to .11 mg/l P (.43 mg/l PO4, Elos High Res) without a change out of mud as recommended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDb2JAoUUw

 

[tmz]

For some visual counterpoint, Several shts from some of my tanks avraging 8 years in age ; mud was never used:

<a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fishandfootball58/media/tanks%202012/SDC10185.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/tanks%202012/SDC10185.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SDC10185.jpg"/></a>


<a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fishandfootball58/media/tanks%202012/SDC10062.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/tanks%202012/SDC10062.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SDC10062.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fishandfootball58/media/tanks%202012/SDC10061.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/tanks%202012/SDC10061.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SDC10061.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fishandfootball58/media/tanks%202012/SDC10056.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/tanks%202012/SDC10056.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SDC10056.jpg"/></a>


<a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fishandfootball58/media/tanks%202012/SDC10069.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/tanks%202012/SDC10069.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SDC10069.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fishandfootball58/media/tanks%202012/SDC10238.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/tanks%202012/SDC10238.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SDC10238.jpg"/></a>

 

[shrimphead]

Regarding dinitrification, it is quite true that bacteria will not use nitrate as an electron acceptor in the presence of oxygen, so dinitrification requires at least anoxic conditions. But denitrification is carried out by both facultative anaerobes as well as obligate anaerobes (different species, of course), so it will take place in both anoxic and anaerobic environments.

+1
the bristleworms etc that stir the sandbed are what make it function correctly.

on the point of the miracle mud it works like a deepsand bed but less is needed because of it's smaller quartz size (compared to sugar fine) and most of the micro fauna species prefer the quartz size in the range that miracle mud is in. (the micro fauna is food for you tank(plankton)) so in conclusion it's just a extremely overpriced substrate with a small quartz size imo.

 

[dkeller_nc]

tmz: Just a minor note: there's no such thing as a "facultative aerobe". Bacteria are either obligate aerobes, facultative anaerobes, or obligate anaerobes. The usage of "facultative aerobe" has showed up in web postings and such over the last 5 to 10 years, but it's not an accepted term by the scientific community. Not a big deal, but if you want to use the correct terminology, the above is right.

You are right it's not a big deal , I'm sure you are trying to be precise but since you made a point of it . The term facultative aerobe and facultative anerobe is properly used interchageably according to the four sources linked below ,which include: a medical dictionary, wikepedia, an on line biology text and another generic academic q and a site ;there are others: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/nutgro_4.html
http://www.funnelbrain.com/c-291712-facultative-aerobes.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_obligate_aerobes_differ_from_facultative_aerobes
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/facultative+aerobes

As you wish, but a scientist will still look at you like you're a moron if you use the term. It's a bit like using "it's" as the possessive; there are lots of references that suggest that usage is acceptable, but an editor of a publication will still correct you.

 

[tmz]

I like words and make a serious effort to use them correctly . So, thankyou for your critiique and comments.

I would note ,however, language does evolve to usage and both terms facultative aerobe and facultative anaerobe aptly capture the intended meaning and are widely used even in a bacteriology textbook and medical dictionary.

Back to the mud and sand.

The removal of DIN(dissolved inorganic nitrogen), occurs in a number of ways including assimilation. Further the facultative anaerobes form low oxygen areas even in the bacterial mat as they use up the free O2 and turn to NO3.

There is no need for areas holding anoxic water in deep sand or mud areas in a reef tank to accomplish adequate nitrogen removal . Many tanks run low to undetectable NO3 levels without any substrate harboring anoxic water .

I don't think anoxia is something to encourage in a closed system, as it often leads to SO4 reduction ,sulfides and toxic hydrogen sulfide production . If obligate anaerobes are involved at all ,it's pretty clear any role they have is not essential to maintaining adequately low nitrogen levels in an aquarium even if its import levels from feeding are substantial. .

 

[shrimphead]

I don't think anyones trying to achieve anoxic areas in their sandbed whether it's a deepsandbed or a mud bed but low oxygen areas. a healthy sandbed has lots of bristleworms and critters that stir the sandbed for gas exchange without this then yes you would have anoxic areas and hydrogen sulfide gas build up.

 

[tmz]

My response re;; anoxic conditions was was related to this :

"...dinitrification requires at least anoxic conditions..."

with which you agreed ,btw..

I agree low oxygen areas with organic carbon,nitrate, and phosphorus are needed for bacteria to use the oxygen from NO3 leaving unbound N to bind with N forming N2 nitrogen gas which bubbles out. That can ocur in a deep sand bed or dense mud ar a significant level if all of those things are transported there in significant quantities which is often not the case; or it can occur in shallow areas where bacteria can create low oxygen( hypoxic) areas in the bacterial mat.

 

[roycinus]

I ve done some research on this when I set up my refugium. I read the analysis and decided to put neither of them in my fuge.

 

[shrimphead]

My response re;; anoxic conditions was was related to this :

"...dinitrification requires at least anoxic conditions..."

with which you agreed ,btw..

I agree low oxygen areas with organic carbon,nitrate, and phosphorus are needed for bacteria to use the oxygen from NO3 leaving unbound N to bind with N forming N2 nitrogen gas which bubbles out. That can ocur in a deep sand bed or dense mud ar a significant level if all of those things are transported there in significant quantities which is often not the case; or it can occur in shallow areas where bacteria can create low oxygen( hypoxic) areas in the bacterial mat.

sorry I didn't read his post properly. your right.

 

[SeedlessOne]

I can't believe people still consider using this stuff. Just take a second to read and realize what it is. Serves zero purpose.

 

[tmz]

Some folks may choose to use the mud;that's ok ; it's their money and system. If they do , I hope they do so with an understanding of what it is and what it isn't .

 

[tfeyrer]

Was this close to adding the mud to my sump....Glad to see the differing opinions and information put out there for one to make an educated decision on their own.....Changed my mind.

 

[d2mini]

Why is everyone grouping all mud together?
From what I understand, Walt Smith collects the Fiji Mud from.... Fiji. Right off the ocean floor.

I use TBS sand in my display for that exact reason. It's teaming with life and if it's good enough for the ocean it's good enough for my tank.

 

[sirreal63]

If you are curious what is in it, follow the links, it should help people decide if they want to blindly follow a marketing ploy.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...igxK0N&usg=AFQjCNGY8kPuddJ-YrSPVa_vDW_zJHRfUw

The conclusions pretty much tell the story.

The analysis indicates that Miracle Mud is 30% silicon. This mostly likely exists in Miracle Mud as silicon dioxide, which is most commonly found in nature as quartz. As pointed out by chemist Randy Holmes-Farley, the molecular weight of silicon makes up less than half the molecular weight of silicon dioxide. So if the silicon present is all in the form of silicon dioxide, then Miracle Mud is more than 63% quartz sand. This seems to be confirmed by the photos.

The high levels of metals (especially Aluminum, Iron and Titanium) are also a point of concern.

In addition, no traces of any marine sediment were found in any microscopic examination - no oolitic sand grains, no shell fragments, no diatoms or any other remnants of marine life. An acid test...indicates that no carbonates are present in Miracle Mud. It is difficult to reconcile these facts with the manufacturer's claim that "Miracle Mud is 80% oceanic mud."

 

[sirreal63]

Dennis, I don't know that anyone has done an assay on Fiji Mud, it may prove telling if someone has. Fortunately we do know what Miracle Mud is comprised of. If you have some Fiji Mud see if you can get someone with a decent microscope to photograph it.

 

[tmz]

Why is everyone grouping all mud together?
From what I understand, Walt Smith collects the Fiji Mud from.... Fiji. Right off the ocean floor.

I use TBS sand in my display for that exact reason. It's teaming with life and if it's good enough for the ocean it's good enough for my tank.

Mud is mud, imo. Miracle mud marketers also claim 8O% is collected from natural mud from the sea which is then it's claimed enhanced even further. I simply choose not to use it and don't see any benefit that could be reasonably expected. My choice.

Lots of things from the ocean are of no benefit or harmful in a reef tank. Anammox bacteria,that thrive in anoxic areas and marshes come to mind as an example . They produce some very toxic byproducts including hydrazine( used for jet fuel) which is highly poisonous to many animals