miracle mud?

[Merlin3100]

There are lots of very nice tanks in this world that don't have Miracle Mud in them. I'm not sure what you mean by "it works", but I don't see anything in the photo that people have accomplished with less expensive approaches.

When you say less expensive, are you also considering the fact your MM setup does not need a skimmer? As well as not burning the electric to run a skimmer? As well as not hearing any noise from a skimmer? As well as not dealing with the heat produced by a skimmer pump?

Yes it's true there are many very nice tanks without MM, but just because you sunk your money going in one older direction doesn't mean other new ways will not work.

There are many well known well respected hobbyist in the industry that use MM with success and have fantastic tanks. So there must be something to this stuff.

 

[Aqua Joe]

When you say less expensive, are you also considering the fact your MM setup does not need a skimmer? As well as not burning the electric to run a skimmer? As well as not hearing any noise from a skimmer? As well as not dealing with the heat produced by a skimmer pump?

Yes it's true there are many very nice tanks without MM, but just because you sunk your money going in one older direction doesn't mean other new ways will not work.

There are many well known well respected hobbyist in the industry that use MM with success and have fantastic tanks. So there must be something to this stuff.

BAM! lol

 

[Zappo]

When you say less expensive, are you also considering the fact your MM setup does not need a skimmer? As well as not burning the electric to run a skimmer? As well as not hearing any noise from a skimmer? As well as not dealing with the heat produced by a skimmer pump?

Yes it's true there are many very nice tanks without MM, but just because you sunk your money going in one older direction doesn't mean other new ways will not work.

There are many well known well respected hobbyist in the industry that use MM with success and have fantastic tanks. So there must be something to this stuff.

LOL. Only 32 months late with that reply. This thread is kinda old. That being said, I'm curious as to why you say using a finer substrate means you don't need a skimmer. I know some people don't use them, but I've never seen substrate particle size listed as the reason before.

 

[Merlin3100]

LOL. Only 32 months late with that reply. This thread is kinda old. That being said, I'm curious as to why you say using a finer substrate means you don't need a skimmer. I know some people don't use them, but I've never seen substrate particle size listed as the reason before.

I did not say you do not need a skimmer. The guy that created the MM did testing without skimmers, as well as many well know experienced Hobbyist that also do not need skimmers. Also there are as many well known hobbyist that use the MM along with skimmers.

Personally I have never used the MM. But it looks interesting and has been given high marks from respected people in this industry. I'm ding research and considering it. I just get ****ed when you turn to these groups for helpfully info, and all you see is uneducated comments from people that are afraid the direction they have gone in for years may not be the best. So with any real testing or experiences on their own they just put down the new idea much like they did to that guy that said the world is not flat back in the day.

 

[RoWall]

many well know experienced Hobbyist that also do not need skimmers. Also there are as many well known hobbyist that use the MM along with skimmers.

Paletta is using the MM with a skimmer. He also used MM without a skimmer if I remember correctly.
I've to say I'm also tempted to use MM method instead of the skimmer. My one week old expensive skimmer just got broken and I'm just tired of dealing with malfunctioning equipment instead of sitting and relaxing by watching the animals.
There are also benefits like greater microbe diversity and the before mentioned polyp extension with this method.
Was wandering if anyone has had a successfull sps tank with MM (no skimmer)?

 

[MONSTERUP]

m.mud is no bueno!!! all it is , is crap from the bottom of the sea. dumping crap in your tank. no reason in trying to hurry your bio. wait and wait and wait some more will reward you in the long run. look into a fuge or alge scrubber. thats my two cents

 

[RoWall]

MM is a way of making a fuge. Giving macroalgae all they need for optimum growth. Without MM you have to dump really a lot of microelements to the tank that relies only on algae filtration (no skimmer). Apart fom NO3 and PO4 that we want out from the tank they need those microelements so either way you have to provide them, otherwise coral will suffer.

 

[thebanker]

I notice that using/not using a skimmer comes up in conversations about miracle mud. I just don't see how it would be related. Haven't we proved that skimmers are unilaterally a GOOD addition to any system?

 

[RoWall]

It is related in a way that with a big/efficient enough algae filtration you can do without a skimmer. MM helps to achieve such an efficient algae filtration.
If someone has/wants to have a skimmerless system doesn't mean that he/she does not believe that skimmer is a good addition to any system.
In my case it's being minimalistic about the equipment. I have really little time left for this hobby but I decided to continue anyway. I'm searching for solutions that would minimize time spend on maintanance. Regulating skimmer, fixing it, cleaning seems just a lot of more work than taking some algae out of the sump once in a while. And as it has been proven with numerous examples, MM works without a skimmer. There are some beautiful displays running on MM only (just take a look at Reef Aquarium Volume 3 or Ultimate Reef Aquariums books).
With that said, I'll probably run this monster skimmer on my system while it's fixed. But if one more failure will take me out of my bad in a middle of night and make me fix stuff for couple of hours I will just unplug the damn thing, throw some alge into the sump and will worry about one thing less. I just don't like to spend more time maintaining equipment than watching the animals, that's all.

 

[tmz]

If you are planning on using granulated activated carbon ,the usual recoomendation is 1/2 cup per 50 gallons of waer volume or !/3 cup of rox 8 carbon cnaged monthly. Systems but that's not a bad starting p[oint ,imo.

I have never used miracle mud and have no intention of doing so

 

[bertoni]

There's no evidence that dosing trace elements is useful for coral health, and people run skimmerless without using Miracle Mud or anything similar.

 

[thebanker]

It is related in a way that with a big/efficient enough algae filtration you can do without a skimmer. MM helps to achieve such an efficient algae filtration.
If someone has/wants to have a skimmerless system doesn't mean that he/she does not believe that skimmer is a good addition to any system.
In my case it's being minimalistic about the equipment. I have really little time left for this hobby but I decided to continue anyway. I'm searching for solutions that would minimize time spend on maintanance. Regulating skimmer, fixing it, cleaning seems just a lot of more work than taking some algae out of the sump once in a while. And as it has been proven with numerous examples, MM works without a skimmer. There are some beautiful displays running on MM only (just take a look at Reef Aquarium Volume 3 or Ultimate Reef Aquariums books).
With that said, I'll probably run this monster skimmer on my system while it's fixed. But if one more failure will take me out of my bad in a middle of night and make me fix stuff for couple of hours I will just unplug the damn thing, throw some alge into the sump and will worry about one thing less. I just don't like to spend more time maintaining equipment than watching the animals, that's all.

I'm sure there are beautiful displays running MM.

At Ecosystem's corporate headquarters there are 4 tanks, with nearly identical livestock, with 4 different methodologies. One of them is the "Paletta Method" with MM and a skimmer, and it has produced the best coral growth and coloration I believe.

There's no evidence that dosing trace elements is useful for coral health, and people run skimmerless without using Miracle Mud or anything similar.

People run skimmerless all the time, and the poster in my above quote is a perfect example. minimalism of equipment, etc are all contributing factors. What I'm saying is that skimmerless should not be a concept that is paired with Miracle Mud, but the two seem to be associated. To make an analogy, it sorta seems like saying "I bought a car with a Diesel engine, so now I don't need leather seats."

 

[tmz]

It is related in a way that with a big/efficient enough algae filtration you can do without a skimmer.

Algae doesn't remove organics it creates them; skimmers remove organics,some precipitatnts and provide aeration. Don't see the association . They do different things.




MM helps to achieve such an efficient algae filtration.


You can grow macroalgae very well in a bare bottom refugium with less mess and crap buildup.


(just take a look at Reef Aquarium Volume 3

Under the mud sections all I see are macro algae refugia that would likely work just as well without the mud. Teh description includes a trickle system over bio balls which will produce nitrate with or without the mud. Have you tried this yourself . Is so perhaps a picture of your tank would be helpful?

 

[tmz]

Here's a picture of the gorgeous tank my friend and I bought & parted out. It was a 12 year old in-wall AGA that had been running on a miracle mud fuge plus a 250w 10000k MH light. It's hard to tell from the photo but the growth was spectacular. All corals had great polyp extension.

While this stuff may be expensive, I've seen proof that it works.

No proof there . "Works" means what eaxactly?

Nice tank but pay attention to what's living in there. Xenia, discoma , euphyllia and a Trachiphylia; all usually do well in tanks with high organics and tolerate high NO3 and PO4 bette rthan most. I have a 65 gallon tank full of them with a good number of fish ,skimmerless and with just a canisiter filter with only gac and a small amount of gfo ;everything in there thrives . If I put more sensitive corals in there ;they wane probably from the high total organic carbon as the nitrate and phosphate levels stay relatively low, at 5ppm NO3 and .05ppm PO4,presumably from coral absorbtion.

 

[thebanker]

I agree with you 100% with your assessment. That post is REALLY old, also, and I wish I could edit it to say:

It's not proof that anything works, just an example of a healthy looking tank that used miracle mud part of the filtration schematic. It happened to be a skimmerless tank with caulerpa under 24hr lighting. Would it support SPS? Probably not in this case.

 

[RoWall]

It is related in a way that with a big/efficient enough algae filtration you can do without a skimmer.

Algae doesn't remove organics it creates them; skimmers remove organics,some precipitatnts and provide aeration. Don't see the association . They do different things.


--I didn't write that algae remove organics. They remove inorganic compounds like PO4 and NO3 and thats what we are after. There is plenty of bacteria living in association with algae that breaks down organics to inorganics which can be utilized by algae. All of this happens simultaneously. Just go to google scholar, go through some published articles on that matter and educate yourself.



MM helps to achieve such an efficient algae filtration.


You can grow macroalgae very well in a bare bottom refugium with less mess and crap buildup.

--Yes, but that doesn't say that MM doesn't help to achieve more rapid algae growth. Which means you can export the nutrients more efficiently by harvesting algae out of the tank.


(just take a look at Reef Aquarium Volume 3

Under the mud sections all I see are macro algae refugia that would likely work just as well without the mud.
--The same as above

Teh description includes a trickle system over bio balls which will produce nitrate with or without the mud. Have you tried this yourself . Is so perhaps a picture of your tank would be helpful?

--No I haven't try to keep MM and bioballs. I'm refering to sides 386,390,395,397 (have your dog eaten those pages?) where you can find photos of beautiful aquariums all containing stony corals and run with a MM methodology which in this book is described as not using a skimmer.

--Have you tried MM method and can certainly say that it doesn't work?? Because Spung and Delbeek showing such marvelus aquariums in their book are more convincing to me than you who can only repeat things that are erronously repeated on forums over and over again, just because someone with bigger number of posts have said it.

 

[G4546]

MM is good for growing mangroves, algae, and sea grasses. If these are the types of life forms trying to be kept, then MM would be great. 80% of MM is composed of the rot and filth that accumulates at the bottom of the ocean. This makes it great fertilizer for these types of systems. This is the opposite of the environment that stony corals prosper in. Stony corals thrive in very nutrient poor water.

To go back a couple years where it was said best and seems to be continuously reiterated. Not needed. Poor for SPS. Might get benefit from softies, but you could achieve the same result (w/ softies) with spending less money.

:headwallblue:

For god sakes it's called "Mud"... Mud in a Reef Tank :debi:

 

[tmz]

--No I haven't try to keep MM and bioballs. I'm refering to sides 386,390,395,397 (have your dog eaten those pages?) where you can find photos of beautiful aquariums all containing stony corals and run with a MM methodology which in this book is described as not using a skimmer.

-
No, my dogs don't eat books or mud.
Did you bother to read those pages you cite or just look at the pictures?

Sprung ad Delbbek do point out a few falsehoods in the mud claims. Read it you'll see:
Pg 387/388:

"... it is claimed that this system would not work without the presence of the mud . Our iown observations contradict this claim .."

The point I made.

pg 388,..An analysis of the chemical composition of the mud shows that i contains a high concentration of iron and maganese, as well as silicate..."



Not very special. Iron and maganese can and is sourced from many sources to boost algae performance.

pg 386:

"...Paletta(2001) erroneously claims taht the balls( bioballs in a trickle down set up) help oxegenate teh water . The bacteria that colonize them in a short time would have the opposite effect , of course...."


-Have you tried MM method and can certainly say that it doesn't work?? Because Spung and Delbeek showing such marvelus aquariums in their book are more convincing to me than you who can only repeat things that are erronously repeated on forums over and over again, just because someone with bigger number of posts have said it.

That's just rude, nonsense. You don't know me. At least I read and keep a critical eye on hype and marketing. . I've run many different systems including various refugia and a separate skimmerless tank. .They work just fine without the mud idea which is now 11yrs old btw.. I haven't tried it don't intend too. I don't plan on puttiing rusty nails in my tank either. Do you? I think it's way overpriced and offers no plausible benefit.

 

[RoWall]

I never claimed that a skimmerless system cannot be done without a MM. Just don't understand this negative attitude towards MM. One person sais sth and then the rest is just repeating like parrots: snake oil, snake oil, without even trying it themselves. Argument that MM idea is 11 y.old is a nonsense. How old are protein skimmers? Does it mean they are not efficient any more?
And by the way. I read this chapter like any other in this book. Many times.
Don't understand why you keep mentioning bioballs when I didn't even mentioned them. Probably you want to use another "parrot" argument: "bioballs are bad" and in this way discredit my claims.
And one more thing. I've had a tank with mud before. It was not MM mud but a mud that I have collected myself in Kenya to keep some seegrass. I put a couple of kilograms under a gravel where I had seagras in an sps tank and guess what? nothing happened. Here is a pic.

 

[SUPPOReefer]

If nothing happened, why is that a good thing? I have nothing happen in my tank all the time. Why would I spend hundreds of dollars to have nothing happen?