Moratorium on "Nitrate Factories"

[sporto0]

sportoO. Did you ever think that maybe it works differently for different people? Like maybe the fact that yours doesn't cause nitrates to run away has very little to do with what happens in other people's tanks. Maybe you are the exception and not the rule.

perhaps that is the case, & you will never catch me saying do it my way or your wrong. I just have a problem with people saying "this" is your problem, get rid of it, when in fact the problem needs more diagnosing & is probably more directly related to an overload on the system due either to poor up-keep or over stocking/feeding.

 

[thebanker]

I think this is a matter of semantics.

This week I was asked to look at a friend's boyfriend's tank and help him figure out why he has high nitrates. I found a large improvised wet/dry filter made of liverock rubble. I explained the nitrogen cycle to him, and how nitrate formation was the end-goal of his filtration design. It's not a nitrate factory, but it is certainly a nitrate convertor. With no added organic carbon for nitrogen immobilization, or a method of anerobic denitrification, his filter will always be a nitrate producer - i.e. a factory.

 

[sporto0]

I think this is a matter of semantics.

This week I was asked to look at a friend's boyfriend's tank and help him figure out why he has high nitrates. I found a large improvised wet/dry filter made of liverock rubble. I explained the nitrogen cycle to him, and how nitrate formation was the end-goal of his filtration design. It's not a nitrate factory, but it is certainly a nitrate convertor. With no added organic carbon for nitrogen immobilization, or a method of anerobic denitrification, his filter will always be a nitrate producer - i.e. a factory.

a "cycle" is continuous, cycle, circle, infinity, are you telling me that you have found a way to never produce nitrates? are you saying that nitrates, a natural occurrence in the ocean are not being used up & reconverted to the cycle? Nitrates are going to exist, we try to create a small piece of the reef in our living room, we can't possibly hope to duplicate every living, breathing organism that lives in the ocean, thats why we have to do water changes, the ocean re"cycles" itself every minute of every day.

 

[disc1]

We're not saying we don't produce nitrate, but we also don't leave the nitrate as nitrate and leave it in the water. We are saying that with other methods the nitrate gets reduced to nitrogen gas and the nitrates stay down in the tank. If you find us an aerobic bacterium or some other method for accomplishing that in a wet-dry filter then surely we can stop those things from being the source of many people's nitrate problems. The simple fact is, that without them, you denitrifying bacteria have a much better chance to convert the nitrate into nitrogen and the cycle goes in a circle like you say. With a wet-dry, you DO NOT have a circular cycle, instead you dead end at nitrate and therefore end up with excessive nitrates in your water.

 

[disc1]

For the record, there are no bioballs currently in use on the ocean

 

[sporto0]

For the record, there are no bioballs currently in use on the ocean

hahahahaha! good one. again my original post was never to convince anyone to use bio balls, just stop using the rediculous & scary sounding term Nitrate Factories applied to every form of euiptment known to man. your ok disc1! of course there are floating garbage debris as large as Arkansas in every ocean thoough.

 

[thebanker]

are you telling me that you have found a way to never produce nitrates?

No. I'm simply saying that certain filtration schematics (e.g. a wet-dry filter with no denitrification system) are best suited to produce nitrates as the end product of nitrogenous waste. For a long time, this was a good thing, and a desired result. In essence, the nitrogen cycle / circle / infinity moebius continuum has been cut short because chemically, the system is limited. In the ocean, a current of water simply brings the correct molecules to complete, and restart, the cycle.

 

[disc1]

hahahahaha! good one. again my original post was never to convince anyone to use bio balls, just stop using the rediculous & scary sounding term Nitrate Factories applied to every form of euiptment known to man. your ok disc1! of course there are floating garbage debris as large as Arkansas in every ocean thoough.

You would do better to read the post above that one or below the one quoted here trying to explain that a wet-dry filter the cycle dead-ends at nitrate. That's why we call them nitrate factories. They take in ammonia and pump out nitrate. With other forms of filtration, we can take that nitrate and have it reduced to nitrogen gas. So the net nitrate production is much much much much less. Ie not a nitrate factory.

 

[sporto0]

moebius continuum, Fantastic! well I agree with you but I do have tons of live rock which do contain denitrifying bacteria, still need to do water changes though, fact of life, there is no LAZY way to keep a reef. thanks mikey, good laugh!

 

[thebanker]

I hardly do any water changes, and my nitrates are very low, usually registering a zero on salifert tests.

I don't do anything fancy, just bio-pellets, skimmer, and a fuge. Sure it's a lot of equipment but every piece has a purpose.

And you're welcome, remember to tip your waitress.

 

[sporto0]

You would do better to read the post above that one or below the one quoted here trying to explain that a wet-dry filter the cycle dead-ends at nitrate. That's why we call them nitrate factories. They take in ammonia and pump out nitrate. With other forms of filtration, we can take that nitrate and have it reduced to nitrogen gas. So the net nitrate production is much much much much less. Ie not a nitrate factory.

you don't produce much much much much more nitrates if your bio load is normal, geez what am i missing? If nitrates are never allowed to get out of control, my filters are not producing more of it, is this unclear? sure, your theory is correct when ammonia levels are too high & nitrates are higher than what can be consumed or converted to gas, which again a normal load will not do. this arguement only applies to an over laden sytem, which is the basis of my entire point here. I do have denitrifying bacteria in my tank as well.

 

[sporto0]

one more interesting thing i would like to add here, my bio balls are mostly submerged, i keep my water level higher for the sump & refugium, so I don't think there is any difference between the surface of a live rock & a bio ball, so less oxygen = less aerobic bacteria & more anaerobic bacteria which = more n2 conversion. I have not nor am I now telling anyone new to the hobby to use a wet/dry with bio balls, but neither will I scare us old timers who use them by saying they are bad.

 

[thebanker]

Sorry bro, gotta disagree with you there again.

GOOD live rock will have enough pores on the surface to allow for beneficial life, like worms, to grab any bits and pieces that land on the rock. Bio Balls are a hard surface.

 

[sporto0]

Sorry bro, gotta disagree with you there again.

GOOD live rock will have enough pores on the surface to allow for beneficial life, like worms, to grab any bits and pieces that land on the rock. Bio Balls are a hard surface.

ok, i didn't mean to suggest you should replace your rock with balls LOL, just bacteria wise the surface is ideal & talk about semantics!

 

[disc1]

you don't produce much much much much more nitrates if your bio load is normal, geez what am i missing? If nitrates are never allowed to get out of control, my filters are not producing more of it, is this unclear? sure, your theory is correct when ammonia levels are too high & nitrates are higher than what can be consumed or converted to gas, which again a normal load will not do. this arguement only applies to an over laden sytem, which is the basis of my entire point here. I do have denitrifying bacteria in my tank as well.

You missed the only key word. NET The NET production of nitrate is higher. For the same bio-load, same amount of ammonia produced, same GROSS amount of nitrate produced, the wet-dry has a higher NET production of nitrate because it does nothing to convert that nitrate to nitrogen.

 

[sporto0]

You missed the only key word. NET The NET production of nitrate is higher. For the same bio-load, same amount of ammonia produced, same GROSS amount of nitrate produced, the wet-dry has a higher NET production of nitrate because it does nothing to convert that nitrate to nitrogen.

ok fair explanation, but are you saying that the nitrate is being instantly converted to nitrogen gas & not released into the water column at all? because if thats the case, you win,:deadhorse1: if not, the denitrifying bacteria on my rock will do the same job with the net amount of nitrates.

 

[barjam]

one more interesting thing i would like to add here, my bio balls are mostly submerged, i keep my water level higher for the sump & refugium, so I don't think there is any difference between the surface of a live rock & a bio ball, so less oxygen = less aerobic bacteria & more anaerobic bacteria which = more n2 conversion. I have not nor am I now telling anyone new to the hobby to use a wet/dry with bio balls, but neither will I scare us old timers who use them by saying they are bad.

There is a huge difference between the surface of your live rock and a bioball, why aren you not getting this basic concept of reef keeping? Live rock completes the nitrogen cycle where bio balls can not. Your bioballs have zero anaerobic bacteria because the surface of even submerged bioballs would have tons of oxygen.

Even worse than that you aren't even using "bioballs" while you are arguing their effectiveness. If you submerge bioballs they are no longer "bioballs" they are just chunks of plastic you have thrown in your tank that can collect detritus. You have largely removed the "bio" from the description by submerging.

 

[disc1]

ok fair explanation, but are you saying that the nitrate is being instantly converted to nitrogen gas & not released into the water column at all? because if thats the case, you win,:deadhorse1: if not, the denitrifying bacteria on my rock will do the same job with the net amount of nitrates.

It isn't instantaneous, but by allowing it to happen in the same place (example a DSB) as the rest of the nitrogen cycle, the equilibrium concentration (with all parts of the cycle acting without impedance) will be much lower. This is due to the higher local concentrations deep in the sand or deep in the live rock. With a wet-dry, you have to get the whole tank concentration that high to get the same turn over. This results in a higher equilibrium concentration.

 

[barjam]

ok fair explanation, but are you saying that the nitrate is being instantly converted to nitrogen gas & not released into the water column at all? because if thats the case, you win,:deadhorse1: if not, the denitrifying bacteria on my rock will do the same job with the net amount of nitrates.

This is exactly what we have web telling you and it is what Randy's article says and it is the prevailing consensus in the hobby.

I read last night that one of the biocube makers even has a warning in their kit that says if you are using their tank as a reef tank to NOT use the bioballs that comes with it. I found that interesting.

 

[lordofthereef]

To the OP,
I have almost never heard anyone tell another person on here to dismantle their canister filter after years of successful use because somehow it has become "the" problem. This is what you seem to be implying. The reality is 99% of the "nitrate factory" statements are made in the new to reefkeeping forum where someone asking for advice is about to set set up a HOB or canister filter. At the end of the day, they are simply not needed and tend to be more work than they are worth (IMO). Hence, we tell people not to use them in the first place. Similarly, if someone is complaining about high nitrates in their tank, have a canister (or other such) filter, and admit they don't clean it as often as they should, the term is used again.