Moratorium on "Nitrate Factories"

[sporto0]

I would like to propose that we refrain from using the term nitrate factories to describe all other filtering methods & media besides live rock or "bio filtration". I have seen this used to describe hob mechanicals, canisters, wet/drys & almost every media type there is, bio balls, ceramic, filter pads & socks, sponges or anything that could mechanically collect detritus. Aquariums ARE nitrate producers, the very meaning & end game of our water cycle is to produce nitrates, and to suggest that any of these other means of filtering or collecting debris produces more nitrates is erroneous and misleading, especially to newcomers to the hobby. If I may paraphrase our brilliant and very experienced reef chemist, Randy Holmes-Farley "It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter or media is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced", so conversley they are not producing MORE nitrates which is what "nitrate Factories" suggests. I will not argue the anaerobic vs aerobic bacteria argument, one adds nitrates after converting the nitrites to the water column, the other converts nitrates into nitrogen gas, I get it. Nitrate production is in direct correlation to how much of bio load is put the aforementioned bacteria. The fact is I would rather keep my mechanical filtration for surface agitation & debris removal, to me cleaning a pad or sponge is far easier than constantly blowing detritus off of the rocks & then trying to siphon it all out before it resettles somewhere else. All circulation in the tank is good no matter how minimal it may be. Also my wet/dry filters provide a sump for my skimmer & refugium area for my DT. I understand this is my opinion & choice, however I do object to the misleading term "Nitrate Factories" being applied to such a broad spectrum of our hobby.

 

[funkejj]

I think the issue here is people do not clean the filters or if they do it is not on a schedule that is often enough to prevent the buildup of gunk that lead to nitrates spewing out to a tank. When removing the media there is not less nitrates produced by fish but there is the lake of nitrates building up in the system in dirty sponges, or bio-balls.

 

[KafudaFish]

Um ok.

I will never use the term nitrate factory in a thread with you again.

I mean after this post of course.

Thank you for your time and good luck with your movement.

 

[dzfish17]

Its just one of those phrases that people like to repeat. I'm using 2 canister filters on my tank and even when I add that they are for "flow only" I still have had folks call them a nitrate factory. I try to explain that there is nothing in them and that they are the same as a mini closed loop but it really doesnt help much. Repeat after me... nitrate factory, nitrate factory, nitrate factory...see, wasnt that fun :lol2:

 

[sporto0]

jj you are so correct, people do not clean their equiptment often enough & dave, LOL, i know what you are saying, saying, saying, there is no convincing these folks of anything different.

 

[chilwil84]

many are called nitrate factories because they are more efficient at converting waste to nitrates than live rock

 

[sporto0]

many are called nitrate factories because they are more efficient at converting waste to nitrates than live rock

true, but it is rarely used as a positive reference.

 

[The_Codfather]

I was using a HOB aqua clear 500 with a sponge for over a year when i first started the hobby maybe cleaned it twice in WC water. I started to see people say "nitrate factories" kinda got me worried as my NO4 was always 0.. I would put rocks, frags.. ect with HA in the tank and within a week or so the HA was gone and not due to any HA CUC as i didn't have any.. as soon as i took that sponge out my NO4 started to go up.. one of the worst mistakes i have made in this hobby

 

[Paco]

See my signature for the only approved version of Nitrate Factory.

 

[jimmy frag]

Aquariums ARE nitrate producers, the very meaning & end game of our water cycle is to produce nitrates, end quote....not in my tanks.

 

[funkejj]

The issue is when people get started and don't clean the sponges, two months later they are like why are my nitrates so high well the crap has built up and never been exported out of the tank. I don't really like to clean or replace that stuff so I run live rock and no filters. I might put a sock on the tank once a month if I am seeing alot of things floating around. I don't have a nitrate issue that can not be solved with regular water changes and such. It might work for some who are diligent in cleaning sponges and pads and such. But for most Noobs they don't do this and then complain about nitrates at 80. I do run GFO cause I feed frozen food that has phosphates, I am sure if I changed my feeding habits I could get rid of it.

 

[barjam]

Why? If the general consensus is that these other methods are, in fact, nitrate factories why would we no longer refer to them as such? I would prefer that waste is allowed to be processed by critters further upstream from bacteria where possible.

Did you read the article that you quote from Mr. Holmes-Farley? He gives you the answer right there.

Such filters do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. So slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced.

When it is produced on the surface of media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

 

[sporto0]

i knew if i built it, "they" would come. general consensus, i doubt it. fact is they do not produce more nitrates than live rock bio filtration, they require regular maintenance & i'd be willing to bet anything that water changes & refugiums remove far more nitrates than bacteria do. & yes of course i read his article & he uses words like "may be reduced" & "more likely to diffuse" not really definitive words now are they?

 

[The_Codfather]

The issue is when people get started and don't clean the sponges, two months later they are like why are my nitrates so high well the crap has built up and never been exported out of the tank. I don't really like to clean or replace that stuff so I run live rock and no filters. I might put a sock on the tank once a month if I am seeing alot of things floating around. I don't have a nitrate issue that can not be solved with regular water changes and such. It might work for some who are diligent in cleaning sponges and pads and such. But for most Noobs they don't do this and then complain about nitrates at 80. I do run GFO cause I feed frozen food that has phosphates, I am sure if I changed my feeding habits I could get rid of it.

Rinse the food with ro/di water

 

[barjam]

i knew if i built it, "they" would come. general consensus, i doubt it. fact is they do not produce more nitrates than live rock bio filtration, they require regular maintenance & i'd be willing to bet anything that water changes & refugiums remove far more nitrates than bacteria do. & yes of course i read his article & he uses words like "may be reduced" & "more likely to diffuse" not really definitive words now are they?

By the very fact that you felt the need to post this indicates it is the general consensus. If your position was mainstream you wouldn't have any reason to correct the prevailing point of view. And what you state is not fact it is your opinion. As far as water changes and refugiums go that is highly dependent of the situation. A bacterial driven system can easily out compete anything for nitrates and can kill macro algaes. Most refugiums are so undersized that they have probably a net zero impact I would guess.

I have used bio balls and mechanical filtration (not cleaned every 3 days) in the past and both have resulted in higher nitrates/phosphates than running without them.

So the interesting thing to me was you referenced Mr. Holmes-Farley's name to lend credence to your position when he was saying the exact opposite. This seems a bit disingenuous to me.

 

[sporto0]

This seems a bit disingenuous to me.

The last thing in the world i'm being is disingenuous. people wield the term "Nitrate Factories" like a sword when in fact it is just their opinion. I don't claim to know everything but I also do not tell people they are doing it wrong when they have been successful for years with their equiptment. I am taking this stand & no where did mr. Holmes-Farley use "nitrate factory" nor did he try to dissuade anyone from their current set-up. he was just explaining the process. & I still contend his post confirms my position, THEY DO NOT PRODUCE MORE NITRATES! I never said hey everybody change your systems from live rock only with a sump & skimmer to a wet/dry or hob, it's the only way to go, did I? my point & only point is that the term nitrate factory is a false term & people feel compelled to scare others with it's use. & the point you try to make about refugiums having a net zero impact seems like an attempt to discredit my position, when you will find the over whelming consensus is that not only do they have an impact, but a major impact on nitrates & phosphates, something which i have experienced directly, that seems a bit disingenuous to me.

 

[barjam]

If someone has a thriving tank with good parameters they aren't going to be asking for advice on getting rid of algae and such. If they are having issues and asking for advice and have outdated items in their setup such as canister filters, bioballs, etc it is natural to persuade them to remove known incomplete nitrogen processing equipment (aka nitrate factories).

Look at Paul B.'s tank. He breaks about every rule and has great success. Just because he can do it (due to years and years of experience no doubt) doesn't mean we should tell people who are struggling to go out an put in a rugf instead of a proven mainstream approach.

 

[BrianOKC]

This seems a bit disingenuous to me.

The last thing in the world i'm being is disingenuous. people wield the term "Nitrate Factories" like a sword when in fact it is just their opinion. I don't claim to know everything but I also do not tell people they are doing it wrong when they have been successful for years with their equiptment. I am taking this stand & no where did mr. Holmes-Farley use "nitrate factory" nor did he try to dissuade anyone from their current set-up. he was just explaining the process. & I still contend his post confirms my position, THEY DO NOT PRODUCE MORE NITRATES! I never said hey everybody change your systems from live rock only with a sump & skimmer to a wet/dry or hob, it's the only way to go, did I? my point & only point is that the term nitrate factory is a false term & people feel compelled to scare others with it's use. & the point you try to make about refugiums having a net zero impact seems like an attempt to discredit my position, when you will find the over whelming consensus is that not only do they have an impact, but a major impact on nitrates & phosphates, something which i have experienced directly, that seems a bit disingenuous to me.

I think your missing the point here. THEY DO PRODUCE MORE NITRATES! When it sucks up waste then holds it in the water column and breaks it down into nitrate.... If the same waste was left in the water and the protein skimmer had a chance to export it out of the water column game over no nitrates!

If you don't use a skimmer then your argument "they don't produce any more nitrates" may be true but if your using a skimmer your wrong.

 

[funkejj]

I look at it more like this. If the new guy post's in the forum that he is looking to get into the hobby and posts a equipment list why not deter him from HOB equipment or buying a wet/dry or a canister filter? It would save him money because it is not required. Your thread here makes it sound like they are a needed thing for the system and you are trying to prove to the world they are a good thing. I am glad it works for you and that you have the time to keep things clean. But people who get into the hobby and are getting started might not have the time nor dedication to do the maintenance that is required. Mechanical filtration is a nitrate harboring item, they do not break down NO3 to N2. There for the nitrates build there. If it does not break it down then the point can be made they are a factory for nitrates. It might not produce them but it collects them and is preventing them from leaving the system. Nothing in this world makes me more angry than going to the LFS and seeing the store pile on equipment that a new guy does not need. Especially when they tell them ah you don't need to clean that stuff. I see the point you are trying to make just don't think you can open yourself up to the other side of the isle's points.

 

[disc1]

You're right. They do not produce more nitrate. What they do is an incomplete process that ends at nitrate and then do nothing about that nitrate.

Now let's say I had two factories. One produces glass bottles and puts them to market. The other produces glass bottles and then immediately inside the same factory recycles them into raw glass. Really, I would only call the first one a glass bottle factory, because it makes glass bottles and lets them out. The second one really makes nothing, it just returns its product to the beginning of the cycle.

So in that respect, I'm going to stay with the word nitrate factory.