Multiple Source Carbon Dosing

[MikeYQM]

I began dosing vodka in July of this year, and later made a switch to pellets. They have been running with success for about 3-4 months. Phosphates are routinely 0 on a Hanna and Nitrates <5ppm with 2 API kits.

I'm wondering if there is any benefit evidenced by dosing multiple carbon sources to attempt to diversify the bacteria cultured in my system. There are accounts by some benefiting more from Vodka dosing than pellets and vice versa.

Would a more balanced carbon regime produce a more balanced system? Are there any perceived dangers other than those associated with single source dosing?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[tmz]

There is no evidence or reason to believe bacterial diversity is achievable or benefical; it could be just the opposite.
Different bacteria and their by products dominate diiferent stages of the acetogeniis process. In overly simplified terms , this is the process where cascades of bacteria breakdown carbohoydrates(plymers such as pellets,etc) to monomers( sugars and such) to ethanol( vodka) to acetic acid( vinegar) to acetate which is used by organisms..In deep ocean substrates or the muck of swamps some this goes further to methane gas.
IME, and that of others, sugar even in small amounts creates problems(recission, browning.death) for some corals and excess glucose has been linked to coral mortality in at least one study Highland Reefer noted in a post a while back. Interference with coral holibonts is one possible reason.

Personally, I've used vodka and vinegar for over 3 yrs with good results( almost no nuisance algae and very rare tiny amounts of cyano) .I avoid upstream items l carbohydrates and sugars. Vodka can be bolus dosed but seems to be useful to some cyano. Vinegar less so which is why I combine some with the vodka dosing . Some folks use just vinegar sucessfully but spread the dose out over daytime hours.

 

[MikeYQM]

So you are dosing vodka and vinegar, 2 levels of the acetogeniis process. In this you have found more positive results over single source dosing.

Why wouldn't it be beneficial to dose at several levels of the process if different bacteria are part of each? Again, I fail to see how a more balanced culture of bacteria wouldn't be more beneficial.

Forgive my lack of scientific education.

 

[MikeYQM]

Based on experience & related opinion, pellets can be used by cyano bacteria. I assume that cyano is prone to use more complex carbon sources. by your own statement, there is a difference even in vodka to vinegar, the latter being less beneficial to cyano. Again, this leads me to believe a more diverse multi source carbon dosing regime would offer better results to more systems.

I'm not asking about increasing the overall carbon dosage, but diversifying the appropriate amount.

 

[tmz]

Again, there is no evidence to support a notion that bacterial diversity from varied carbon sources is beneficial. It might sound nice but doesn'treally make any sense and grew from commercial marketting of secret blends of orga cabon There is some evidence that polymers and monomers cause difficulty for corals. Vodka is easily bolused dosed for those who favor that method but may be more useful to cyano than vinegar . Vinegar needs to be spread out over time when dosing due to high initial CO2 additions and ph effects that come with it.

 

[tmz]

I assume that cyano is prone to use more complex carbon sources

 

[tmz]

Sorry the computer is jumping to send before I finish.


I assume that cyano is prone to use more complex carbon sources

I wouldn't make that assumption. There is a lot of activity and by products from breadkdown in play. f anything one would assume cyano wouldn't care about organic carbon at all since most of them are autotrophic( use CO2 and light to produce their own organic carbon) . But assumptions usually don't work and can't really be more than an uniformed guess when they are made about a complex biochemical process wherin much is unknown.
There is no plausible hypothesis to support any benefit from bacterial diviersity related to multiple organic sources. There are many who are sucessful with single source dosing or in my case two sources very close to the bottom of the cascade and many who have experienced difficulty with multiple source dosing or with polymers and/or monomers..

 

[tmz]

, by your own statement, there is a difference even in vodka to vinegar, the latter being less beneficial to cyano.


That's not my starement; read it again. I said cyano seems to be advantaged by ehanol more than acetic acid, I don't claim to know that as a fact.. I started with just vodka several years ago. In the early months some small patches of cyano appeared . Following anecdotal accounts by some folks whose observations I trust , I decided to try some vinegar . Switched over 25% of the dose to vinegar. Cyano abated. Perhaps coincidence ;perhaps not. Along the way small amounts ofsugar 1/4tsp for 600 gallons were tried with terrible reactions by corals.

The myth of a dreaded monoculture of bacteria and diversity being beneficial in an unspecified way was perpetuated years ago by manufacturers of secret blends of costly commericially produced and marketed organic carbon sources. These products also require the regualr addition of secret blends of bacteria ,claimed to be designed to consume the specific carbon sources in the secret blend.. Thing is these bacteria don't remain viable in a tank and need to be continously redosed. Why would that happen if there were engineered to proliferate with the secret blend of organics for food? There is just no evidence for any of this and common sense points in an opposite direction, imo.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I see no actual or even theoretical advantage to dosing multiple carbon sources. There is no inherent advantage to them, or even to the hypothetical possibility of having multiple bacterial species thriving, that I have ever heard articulated.

What do you think the advantage could be?

 

[MikeYQM]

My logic behind asking is if certain carbon sources allow different bacteria to proliferate, perhaps there could be benefit to that (ie out competing nonbeneficial strains).

Different tanks respond differently to various dosing sources, which is what led me to consider a balanced approach. Thanks for the input.

 

[jamey1015]

This topic makes me think of people who are mixing vodka and vinegar (25% vodka & 75% vinegar) and seeing better results at least were cynao is concerned and it going away verses just using one or the other alone.

Can we explain why that might happen?

 

[tmz]

I do that.

I also think vinegar alone could work.

I have an established dosing system and tanks that are doing very well so I'm reluctant to mess with it too much. I started with vodka and decided not to change the way I dose it completely. I tried a higher proportion of vinegar(50%) and cyano returned, maybe because the bacteria previously established to vodka were waning and feeding it.
I
don't know but I do know I don't get any at the 70% vodka 30% vinegar mix and others don't get any in display areas with all vinegar.

I prefer to bolus dose it( large amounts at once).I suits my routine and fits the long established regimen for the tank. Vinegar drops ph quickly so needs to be spread out during photosynthetic hours if large amounts are dosed. . Vodka drops ph about the same but much more slowly Bursts of bacterial growth may occur when dosing larger amounts at one time affording more opportunities for anaerobic activity .

 

[bertoni]

If your tank is having trouble with carbon dosing some sort of problematic microbial bloom, trying a different carbon source or maybe a mixture might be useful.

 

[tmz]

My logic behind asking is if certain carbon sources allow different bacteria to proliferate, perhaps there could be benefit to that (ie out competing nonbeneficial strains).

Mike,

I get that logic and thought about it for along time early on , but that logic can flip to one that argues encouraging different bacteria to proliferate may be harmful particularly as with sugar or carbohydrates where enough reports ans at least one study and my personal experiences give sway to the negative side for me.

On the other hand, I have not heard reports of nor observed coral recission or browning with vodka or vinegar and think it makes sense to dose a carbon source closer to acetate and avoid the more complex breakdown and by products associated with the others.

 

[jamey1015]

TMZ that makes sense to me on the previous bacteria, and Bertoni I had a terrible Bio-pellet experience and even though I'm only in my first few weeks of vinegar dosing I'm seeing none of the problems I had with bio-pellets and yes I started slowly with those and they still were terrible in my system.

 

[bertoni]

Okay, that makes sense. It's too bad the bio-pellets didn't work, but a fair number of tanks seem to have had issues with them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This topic makes me think of people who are mixing vodka and vinegar (25% vodka & 75% vinegar) and seeing better results at least were cynao is concerned and it going away verses just using one or the other alone.

Can we explain why that might happen?

I don't believe I have ever seen an example of that relative to vinegar alone, but if true, it can be explained in many ways that are unrelated to driving multiple strains.

One is that folks often change total dosing amounts when messing with types of organic carbon dosed.

A second is that if you have a strain of cyano that consumes one or the other organic well, switching to half of the amount of that organic and half that it cannot consume may cause it to decline with less food. In that case, switching entirely to another single type might be an even better choice.

 

[MikeYQM]

Further to this discussion, for about 2 weeks I've been adding about 1.1% per volume of vinegar to my lime ATO to help lower the pH. I haven't noticed any differences by way of a bacteria bloom or change in nutrient levels. Average is about 30mL per day in .7 Gal of lime daily @75% concentration.

Does adding vinegar in this method change the bioavailability or is it too soon to see any other impact?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It should be equally bioavailable.

What size is the aquarium for the 30 ml of vinegar per day?

 

[DrBegalke]

I don't dose vinegar, or vodka, or vsv, but I have heard people argue that multiple carbon sources are better:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13829200#post13829200