My 65G Shallow Reef Tank

[DiscusHeckel]

Here is a quick update. I have posted two pictures showing the colour change of a particular rock instead of a coral :spin2:

20th April 2017

2nd June 2017

I am well pleased. Measurable nutrients on between the two dates above remained the same.

Moreover, my SSC colony is doing well. I cut a frag from it to raise some funds at the beginning of last April. Sadly after attaching it to a plug using a super glue. It lost all its colour. The buyer understandably pulled out of the deal. Anyway, I was determined to restore its colouration. I placed it right next to its mother ciolony. This is how it looks tonight:

Finally, I administered my second dose of Tropic Marin Reef Actif last night. It is still too early to come up with a judgement, but what is noticeable is that the frequency of glass cleaning dropped from once a day to one every two days. I am currently dosing once a week and 1/4th of the recommended dose.

 

[reefmutt]

That corraline algea growth is fantastic, Bulent. In two months. That's a lot of growth. You haven't changed a thing? I wonder what made it suddenly so happy.
Also, that frag isn't, like a brown turd, it's still got classic ssc colours.. I'd a bought it!
Curious to see how the reef actif goes.. I have ordered some. Should arrive in about two weeks and I'll begin using it maybe a couple weeks after that.

 

[woolleson]

Just to add. I've been dosing reef active for 2 weeks now. Half dose 3 times a week. As Heckel I've noticed less glass cleaning. More so my water look crystal clear and I've seen a good response from my zoa garden. They are open more and have a vibrancy about them. No real visible signs of improvement in my sps yet. Also I was finding bacteria (white gunk) on my powerhead I've cut back on bactobalance and this is retarding

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[DiscusHeckel]

That corraline algea growth is fantastic, Bulent. In two months. That's a lot of growth. You haven't changed a thing? I wonder what made it suddenly so happy.
Also, that frag isn't, like a brown turd, it's still got classic ssc colours.. I'd a bought it!
Curious to see how the reef actif goes.. I have ordered some. Should arrive in about two weeks and I'll begin using it maybe a couple weeks after that.

I bought this Aquaroche rock on 25th March 2017 and placed it in my tank on 29th March 2017. It became pretty ugly to look at on 7th April. Then coralline algae steadily took over the brown/green algae. Snails, crabs and urchin do not visit this rock very frequently. Perhaps its surfaces are too sharp for them.

I changed two things. first, I stopped dosing sponge power (6th May). Second, Koral Color (8th May). I do not know if they had any impact on coralline algae's growth rate. But the colour of A. hyacinthus look quite different in two photos in my previous post. Perhaps my strategy to cut down on potions has started to produce some results. May be not. I do not know.

29th March 2017

7th April 2017

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Just to add. I've been dosing reef active for 2 weeks now. Half dose 3 times a week. As Heckel I've noticed less glass cleaning. More so my water look crystal clear and I've seen a good response from my zoa garden. They are open more and have a vibrancy about them. No real visible signs of improvement in my sps yet. Also I was finding bacteria (white gunk) on my powerhead I've cut back on bactobalance and this is retarding

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I started with quarter dose once a week two weeks ago. Are you shadowing me? I will continue with this rate for another two weeks. I will then increase to half dose for four weeks. Then I will increase to full dose, but only once a week and take it from there.

Bacteria accumulating on your powerhead is a sign of organic carbon overdosing. I used to get a lot of white snot in my return pipe when I dosed TM Elimi-NP (polyalcohol) into my sump to increase bacteria counts in there to control cyano in the main display. It worked well, but I did not like the snot and stopped dosing Elimi-NP.

I would cut down on Reef Actif instead of Bacto-Balance. (I will validate this advice with Hans-Werner and get back to you on here). In addition, if you are not already doing so, I would start dosing A- elements because additional bacterial activity promoted by Reef Actif and Bacto-Balance will deplete anionic elements in the water column. Cationic elements are already in Bacto-Balance anyway.

If you are on Facebook, I update my TM Reef Actif Note on my Facebook page once a week. Otherwise, executive summaries will be posted on this thread.

Cheers

 

[markalot]

Someone didn't purchase an SSC because it browned? Obviously they had no clue what they were buying.

Love the coraline growth, very interesting about the potion cut back. I stopped SpongePower recently as well but only because I ran out and was to lazy to order more. I'm doing too many potions, it's an addiction.

 

[woolleson]

I started with quarter dose once a week two weeks ago. Are you shadowing me? I will continue with this rate for another two weeks. I will then increase to half dose for four weeks. Then I will increase to full dose, but only once a week and take it from there.

Bacteria accumulating on your powerhead is a sign of organic carbon overdosing. I used to get a lot of white snot in my return pipe when I dosed TM Elimi-NP (polyalcohol) into my sump to increase bacteria counts in there to control cyano in the main display. It worked well, but I did not like the snot and stopped dosing Elimi-NP.

I would cut down on Reef Actif instead of Bacto-Balance. (I will validate this advice with Hans-Werner and get back to you on here). In addition, if you are not already doing so, I would start dosing A- elements because additional bacterial activity promoted by Reef Actif and Bacto-Balance will deplete anionic elements in the water column. Cationic elements are already in Bacto-Balance anyway.

If you are on Facebook, I update my TM Reef Actif Note on my Facebook page once a week. Otherwise, executive summaries will be posted on this thread.

Cheers

Lol. Not so much shadowing more an admirer that follows

I have seen your Facebook post on reef active but not seen any update on your reef active adventure. For some reason I can't see your notes.

Apart from the snot I reduced the bactobalance just as a short term experiment. I've used it for 6 plus months and always struggle with nitrate. Even using 3 different test kits never detect no3. Po4 fluctuates from 0.03 to 0.5. I've increased my bioload (now have 14 fish in a 90 gallon)as you once recommend but still no no3.

My readings say a little nitrate helps in reducing the po4 ratio, as I've just gone through a battle with bryopsis, bubble and turf algea and come out with a nice looking tank (all my corals have good colour ) want to keep it this way. Don't want to go back to using vibrant and fluconazole plus gfo as control.





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[woolleson]

Forgot to add I dose a elements as well as bactobalance

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[DiscusHeckel]

Lol. Not so much shadowing more an admirer that follows

I have seen your Facebook post on reef active but not seen any update on your reef active adventure. For some reason I can't see your notes.

Apart from the snot I reduced the bactobalance just as a short term experiment. I've used it for 6 plus months and always struggle with nitrate. Even using 3 different test kits never detect no3. Po4 fluctuates from 0.03 to 0.5. I've increased my bioload (now have 14 fish in a 90 gallon)as you once recommend but still no no3.

My readings say a little nitrate helps in reducing the po4 ratio, as I've just gone through a battle with bryopsis, bubble and turf algea and come out with a nice looking tank (all my corals have good colour ) want to keep it this way. Don't want to go back to using vibrant and fluconazole plus gfo as control.

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Thanks for your compliment.

My experience suggests that if you overdose Bacto-Balance, it can 'wake up' dormant bryopsis due to iron contained in the product as part of K+ elements. Hans-Werner did agree with me on this though he indicated that cyano were much more frequently reported. I have found that if your dose exceeds ~0.85 ml per 100L and you also dose K+ elements (bacto-balance and K+ doses together must not exceed 1 ml per 100L), then bryopsis may appear.

It is annoying that you cannot access my Facebook Notes. I cannot either if I use iPhone's Facebook App. However, Notes are clearly visible if you access my page via a web browser.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/troutsReefTank/notes/?ref=page_internal

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Someone didn't purchase an SSC because it browned? Obviously they had no clue what they were buying.

Love the coraline growth, very interesting about the potion cut back. I stopped SpongePower recently as well but only because I ran out and was to lazy to order more. I'm doing too many potions, it's an addiction.

I suggested that perhaps I should refund his money. He did not disagree with me. So, I respected his decision.

I rested the frag at least one week on my frag tray before using superglue to attach it to a frag plug. I left the frag outside for two or three minutes to make sure that the glue was set. That was perhaps was mistake on my part. I should have used a glue gel instead of a liquid superglue. The frag lost its colour immediately and looked light cream/brown though it extended its polyps, but not to the same extend before this event. The photo below was taken on 1st May, almost a month after this event. You can see that the colour was still not right at all. One month under moderate/high light (~350-400 mmol/m2/sec PAR) and strong flow did the trick. Within a few days, it started to encrust its base and its natural colouration started to reappear albeit very slowly (note that the few colourful tip on the left belong to the mother colony. There is a branch behind the frag, which gives the impression that it belongs to it, but it does not).

 

[DiscusHeckel]

My reef tank as of 30th May 2017 (please forgive my untidiness around the tank):

Full Tank Shot by M Bülent Özcan, on Flickr

Full Tank Shot by M Bülent Özcan, on Flickr

 

[reefmutt]

Nice! Your tank has great flow, aesthetically speaking.

 

[woolleson]

Thanks for your compliment.

My experience suggests that if you overdose Bacto-Balance, it can 'wake up' dormant bryopsis due to iron contained in the product as part of K+ elements. Hans-Werner did agree with me on this though he indicated that cyano were much more frequently reported. I have found that if your dose exceeds ~0.85 ml per 100L and you also dose K+ elements (bacto-balance and K+ doses together must not exceed 1 ml per 100L), then bryopsis may appear.

It is annoying that you cannot access my Facebook Notes. I cannot either if I use iPhone's Facebook App. However, Notes are clearly visible if you access my page via a web browser.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/troutsReefTank/notes/?ref=page_internal

Thanks for the link, I use the app also son least it's not just me .

We talked about our bryopsis problem within relation to iron. I bought an iron test kit on the back of it but this showed no iron present. But only in the water column who knows what was tied up in the bryopsis. Now this has been beaten hopefully the reduction in dosing will help. I was dosing 3ml (350L tank) of bactobalance and A elements (on hans recommend dose) but have dropped this too 1.5ml of each per day.

I'm also going to drop my water changes to 15% per fortnight rather than each week. As I've noticed when I do miss on the odd occasion there has been no negative impact.



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[DiscusHeckel]

Beautiful tank DH! What are your thoughts on the other side of the trace elements debate, about coral tissues and skeletons having higher amounts because they use it more as a substitution for the other more major elements that aren't as present at the time of growth?

I am in my car at the moment (Waiting on my son to get out of school, not driving ) so I can't pull up the thread I saw the debate on but I believe it involved Randy Holmes-Farley and other more science oriented reef people.

The reason I am looking at this is because I am currently using AF's Component 123+ system. I am soon to finish my first container of it and after some reading around I have a hard time justifying it's addition.. I am wondering if it is necessary for better growth or colors. I don't think the evidence provided in the pro argument is necessarily absolute proof that it's true.. more situational. Unfortunately the other side says the evidence isn't conclusive enough to say whether it actually helps or not.

Christian

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Hi Christian,

Thanks for your compliment.

The reason for the delay in answering your question was that I wanted to read Hans-Werner's article several times to absorb the information in it. There are so many scientific terms that I wanted to be comfortable with the main messages in the article.

I hope that by now you have the article too. Table 2 and Table 3 in the article make it clear that trace element concentration in zooxanthellae is higher than coral skeleton.

To quote Hans-Werner: "Skeletons show the least enrichment of trace elements of all parts, which will be important for our later calculations. A closer study of the concentrations shows that coral tissue shows the smallest variability in trace metal concentration. This confirms the finding (Fisher, 2002) that essential trace metals are more or less under homeostatic control.

Surprisingly the trace metals in the zooxanthellae are highly variable and of high concentration. This may be the cause why the zooxanthellae show signs of stress while the polyp of the coral remains nearly unaffected by moderately elevated trace metal concentrations."

In my opinion, whether or not it is necessary to supplement trace elements depends on a set up. In set ups in which coral population is not high and high growth is not a goal, adding food and/or water changes may well be sufficient. On the other hand, set ups, in which coral population is high, may require additional trace element supplementation to sustain good growth.

If you decide to supplement trace elements, it is important that you use a balanced trace element supplement. This is one of the most important points outlined in the article that will stick in my head. To quote Hans-Werner again: "The proportions of trace elements (and nutrients in general) seem to be more important than the absolute concentration in a certain extent. An advantage of a balanced trace element supplementation with an elevated concentration of all essential trace metals may be a higher stability against imbalances caused by minor accidental additions of just one trace element, for example with contaminants."

So, continuing to use Component 1+2+3 for you makes sense to me. A lot of products we use in these days have their origins in research cited in Hans-Werner Balling's article.

If you provide a link to debates by other scientists, then perhaps we can compare their ideas to the ones outlined in Hans-Werner's article. All I have been able to read so far is that some people argue that

1. food and water changes should be sufficient to replenish trace elements;
2. some trace elements are not consumed and cen even accumulate in a reef tank (e.g. iodine).

In my own tank, until February 2015, I did not use any trace element supplementation, but used GFO and macro algae. Since then I have been supplementing trace element and not using GFO and macro algae. Coral growth as well as colouration have increased measurably since then. For what it is worth GFO and macro algae are known sinks for trace elements and heavy metals. Hence, balanced trace element supplementation, in my opinion, makes even more sense when GFO and/or macro algae are used for nutrient export.

Cheers

Bülent

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Thanks for the link, I use the app also son least it's not just me ��.

We talked about our bryopsis problem within relation to iron. I bought an iron test kit on the back of it but this showed no iron present. But only in the water column who knows what was tied up in the bryopsis. Now this has been beaten hopefully the reduction in dosing will help. I was dosing 3ml (350L tank) of bactobalance and A elements (on hans recommend dose) but have dropped this too 1.5ml of each per day.

I'm also going to drop my water changes to 15% per fortnight rather than each week. As I've noticed when I do miss on the odd occasion there has been no negative impact.

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I have read that hobby grade iron tests are not very reliable. An alternative is have an ICP test done. However, I want to share something I learned in Hans-Werner Balling's article I wrote about in my response to Christian above. To quote Hans-Werner:

"Analyzing trace and minor elements in seawater is complicated, the disturbance of high halogenide concentrations against the sometimes very low element concentrations is immense. Most regular analytical laboratory procedures are not suitable. Inductive coupled plasma optical emissions spectroscopy (ICP-OES) formerly called inductive coupled plasma atomic emission spectroscopy (ICP-AES) and inductive coupled plasma-mass spectrometry (ICP-MS) are the most useful methods for determination even very low quantities of elements.

ICP-OES is useful to determine Na, K, Ca, Mg, B, Sr, S and P, while ICP-MS is suitable for determination Sb, Co, Mn, Zn, Cu, As, Se, Al, Ti, Fe, Cr, Si, Mo, Li, Ti, Co, Ni, Br and Ba." Hence, you need to make sure that ICP technique used by your testing company uses the right tool for the right elements.

Iron is so essential to life forms that it must be consumed by algae and bacteria as soon as it becomes bioavailable. So, I am not surprised by low readings (even though your test kit's accuracy is questionable at best).

As for water changes, you are unlikely to notice any difference because you are already supplementing the required trace elements in a balanced way. Remember that when Triton and ATI promote their products they argue that we the aquarists do not need to change water. Let's not go into this topic, shall we?

Cheers

Bülent

 

[woolleson]

I have read that hobby grade iron tests are not very reliable. An alternative is have an ICP test done. However, I want to share something I learned in Hans-Werner Balling's article I wrote about in my response to Christian above. To quote Hans-Werner:

"Analyzing trace and minor elements in seawater is complicated, the disturbance of high halogenide concentrations against the sometimes very low element concentrations is immense. Most regular analytical laboratory procedures are not suitable. Inductive coupled plasma optical emissions spectroscopy (ICP-OES) formerly called inductive coupled plasma atomic emission spectroscopy (ICP-AES) and inductive coupled plasma-mass spectrometry (ICP-MS) are the most useful methods for determination even very low quantities of elements.

ICP-OES is useful to determine Na, K, Ca, Mg, B, Sr, S and P, while ICP-MS is suitable for determination Sb, Co, Mn, Zn, Cu, As, Se, Al, Ti, Fe, Cr, Si, Mo, Li, Ti, Co, Ni, Br and Ba." Hence, you need to make sure that ICP technique used by your testing company uses the right tool for the right elements.

Iron is so essential to life forms that it must be consumed by algae and bacteria as soon as it becomes bioavailable. So, I am not surprised by low readings (even though your test kit's accuracy is questionable at best).

As for water changes, you are unlikely to notice any difference because you are already supplementing the required trace elements in a balanced way. Remember that when Triton and ATI promote their products they argue that we the aquarists do not need to change water. Let's not go into this topic, shall we?

Cheers

Bülent

Thanks for that, makes sense.

Icp is something I'm considering, but I'm not sure the number chasing us the path I want to go down. I know those that do it and fret and are constantly trying to correct on the back of it.

No don't worry I'm not going down the water change road. For the record I've kept "water" for 30 plus years (also currently have a 3000 gallon koi pond) and water changes have always been my friend. My only concern is maybe I was doing to much to often and so hence the cut back. But will always water change

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[Wrangy]

Wow Bulent the tank looks unreal! As Matt said the flow of the scape really works and those colonies :inlove:

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Nice! Your tank has great flow, aesthetically speaking.

Wow Bulent the tank looks unreal! As Matt said the flow of the scape really works and those colonies :inlove:

Thank you for your compliments.

I am not 100% happy with the Aquaroche on the left back end of my tank, but that is the only way I can accommodate my large wild-collected A. desalwii colony along with an A. hyacinthus frag. The problem is that I cannot see them when I look at my tank laterally. I though about placing that rock in the front, but did not in the end because I did not want my blue staghorn coral to take a back seat.

 

[Big E]

Time for a bigger peninsula tank so you have three sides to view.....it's a crime to hack up those beauties to fit viewing

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Time for a bigger peninsula tank so you have three sides to view.....it's a crime to hack up those beauties to fit viewing

Thanks Ed. I agree, but those colonies will still grow in no time even if I have a bigger tank. I will have the same problem. Besides the joists under my tank were designed to carry up to 500kg of weight by a structural engineer I hired when I extended my house. The tank is upstairs on the first floor of my house. My choice is therefore limited even if I decide to upgrade one day.