My 65G Shallow Reef Tank

[reefmutt]

Hey Bulent, I must say I was not aware that you had a dsb in your system.
I wouldn't have pegged you for a dsb guy.. but then again I wouldn't have pegged you for a cheato fuge guy either.. I guess because I probably started following your thread right around your switch to FM.
Tell me more about your dsb maintenance regimen..
I added my first dsb (it was a plenum design to be exact) to my reef in '95 about 6 months after purchasing metal halide lights for the first time.
I watched my uncontrollable hair algea disappear over the next 6 month period.
I was hooked..
I have used them in every reef I've ever kept, since- up until a few months ago when I pulled it out of my current system for fear it was causing nutrient issues and not helping them.
I must say, after removing the dsb, I saw no nutrient movement up or down.
I have always liked them for the exact same reasons you list above. And I have also felt that a well functioning sand bed will mitigate rapid swings in nutrient levels. Making the system more stable.. I do know that over time, they do not perform as well as when they are new.
I have played with sand in baskets which could be rotated out and replaced on a regular schedule thus renewing the sandbed.
But with all the bacteria products available and the use of medias like siporax and matrix, I just wonder if they really help or if they just produce more maintenance, long term.
I guess the sand bed and the bacteria/ media syatems don't have to be mutually exclusive but I just wonder if the dsb has enough benefits now to be more useful than the maintenance involved..

Also, I recently noticed that Aquaforest now has its own mud product.. have you begun to experiment with the FM product?

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hey Bulent, I must say I was not aware that you had a dsb in your system.
I wouldn't have pegged you for a dsb guy.. but then again I wouldn't have pegged you for a cheato fuge guy either.. I guess because I probably started following your thread right around your switch to FM.
Tell me more about your dsb maintenance regimen..
I added my first dsb (it was a plenum design to be exact) to my reef in '95 about 6 months after purchasing metal halide lights for the first time.
I watched my uncontrollable hair algea disappear over the next 6 month period.
I was hooked..
I have used them in every reef I've ever kept, since- up until a few months ago when I pulled it out of my current system for fear it was causing nutrient issues and not helping them.
I must say, after removing the dsb, I saw no nutrient movement up or down.
I have always liked them for the exact same reasons you list above. And I have also felt that a well functioning sand bed will mitigate rapid swings in nutrient levels. Making the system more stable.. I do know that over time, they do not perform as well as when they are new.
I have played with sand in baskets which could be rotated out and replaced on a regular schedule thus renewing the sandbed.
But with all the bacteria products available and the use of medias like siporax and matrix, I just wonder if they really help or if they just produce more maintenance, long term.
I guess the sand bed and the bacteria/ media syatems don't have to be mutually exclusive but I just wonder if the dsb has enough benefits now to be more useful than the maintenance involved..

Also, I recently noticed that Aquaforest now has its own mud product.. have you begun to experiment with the FM product?

Matt,

I am not a DSB guy. I never had DSB in any of my systems. You must have thought that I was because of the way I wrote about sand beds' ability to adsorb phosphates in my reply to GSMClowns. I normally keep my sand bed as at a depth of 2" or lower.

I have no doubt DSBs work as long as there is strong flow over them and sand stirring critters live in them (or you manually stir it gently from time to time).

I never come across FM's mud product in the UK. What is its name? I read about Tropic Marin Mud Vital, but did not order it after Andrew said it was dirt. I have not written to Herr Balling about it yet. I will do it today.

 

[biggles]

I never come across FM's mud product in the UK. What is its name? I read about Tropic Marin Mud Vital, but did not order it after Andrew said it was dirt. I have not written to Herr Balling about it yet. I will do it today.

Hang on there Bulent, i'm pretty certain it was Matt who first used the ' dirt ' word. As i recall, it was me that suggested you do whatever you wanted with the product and i would have your back no matter what. :beer:

Now Matt's bullying you into contacting Herr Balling............... i suppose that's my fault too is it :rolleye1:

( make sure you ask him my worm question please mate )

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hang on there Bulent, i'm pretty certain it was Matt who first used the ' dirt ' word. As i recall, it was me that suggested you do whatever you wanted with the product and i would have your back no matter what. :beer:

Now Matt's bullying you into contacting Herr Balling............... i suppose that's my fault too is it :rolleye1:

( make sure you ask him my worm question please mate )

Oh dear, Andrew I think I am upsetting you inadvertently. I hate upsetting my friends. I am sorry if I did.

For the record, our conversation about TM Mud Vital began when I mentioned it for the first time in your thread on 04/25/2017 02:49 pm (post no 2626). You then replied shortly after on the same day (post no 2627).

I have contacted Herr Balling not because I am being forced to, but because of my own curiosity. I like doing research and making up my own mind. When I wrote to Herr Balling earlier this morning, I also asked him about any research articles on the utilisation of trace elements by corals. He is very helpful and open about things if you approach him in the right way. Sadly, he is away until 17th May. So, getting any answer will have to wait.

Interaction in written form is not always the best way of communication. I think we are witnessing this as words can be misinterpreted. You are an excellent source of information and you stretch me beyond my natural boundaries for which I thank you.

 

[biggles]

You never upset me Bulent. You have no idea how much i admire the ease with which you not only keep but grow like weeds, the many beautiful and richly colored acros you do.

If you had access to the acros i do, you would put my display to shame Bulent. :beer:

 

[DiscusHeckel]

You never upset me Bulent. You have no idea how much i admire the ease with which you not only keep but grow like weeds, the many beautiful and richly colored acros you do.

If you had access to the acros i do, you would put my display to shame Bulent. :beer:

This is really good to know. I appreciate your compliment Andrew. :wave:

 

[reefmutt]

Matt,

I am not a DSB guy. I never had DSB in any of my systems. You must have thought that I was because of the way I wrote about sand beds' ability to adsorb phosphates in my reply to GSMClowns. I normally keep my sand bed as at a depth of 2" or lower.

I have no doubt DSBs work as long as there is strong flow over them and sand stirring critters live in them (or you manually stir it gently from time to time).

I never come across FM's mud product in the UK. What is its name? I read about Tropic Marin Mud Vital, but did not order it after Andrew said it was dirt. I have not written to Herr Balling about it yet. I will do it today.

D'oh! My mistake.. yes, I though you were talking about your dsb on the sand bed discussion.
I thought it was FM.. right tropic Marin. Ok. I think AF's version is called life vital or something..
Anyways.. Like I said.. seems like an odd product.
I think biggles called it dirt first..
It's usually the Aussie starting the dirt slinging.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

D'oh! My mistake.. yes, I though you were talking about your dsb on the sand bed discussion.
I thought it was FM.. right tropic Marin. Ok. I think AF's version is called life vital or something..
Anyways.. Like I said.. seems like an odd product.
I think biggles called it dirt first..
It's usually the Aussie starting the dirt slinging.

Hi Matt,

I have written to Hans-Werner Balling, but he is away. Hence, I had to do some hunting of information by myself about Reef Mud on a German forum of which Tropic Marin is one of the sponsors. I have found some useful information provided by Herr Balling. Here is the Google translation of what he wrote in German, which is slightly odd in some sentences (I corrected all of them except one and put my version in "[ ..... ]". The red highlighted sentences are a puzzle for me. I guess I will have to ask him what he meant by them later this month. I think that in the first sentence in red, he means that because mineral and trace elements in mud are released slowly, they replenish any trace element we add (either directly or via water changes) that are exhausted quickly.

"REEF MUD VITAL is a mineral mud or fine silt that is extracted from the sea near reef areas and is packed and shipped wet. It has a balancing effect on the trace element balance by introducing natural trace elements that are released slowly. Water absorption and excess trace elements can be absorbed and precipitated by adsorption processes so that the water becomes particularly clear and the corals react with improved polyp expansion.

Equally important is the natural microbiology that comes with the REEF MUD into the reef aquarium. The bacteria, unicellular organisms, fungi, etc., which naturally occur in the reef areas, are introduced into the aquarium by means of REEF MUD, where they revitalize abbaupprocesses [???] and pelvic [reef water column] biology.

During filtration, UV and ozone should be switched off for a few hours, otherwise skimming, coal [GAC], phosphate adsorbers, etc. can continue.

REEF MUD SUBSTRATES is practically identical, but the amounts are adequate for a algae refugium [this means that effectively you are adding something like miracle mud into our aquarium albeit in much smaller amounts], where the algae are supplied with trace elements and natural nutrients via the rhizoids, the root-like shoots [read this as mango roots]. "

 

[reefmutt]

I do love the sound of the stuff, in theory...
still, I'd rather lay it down in a fuge as a sand bed than put the fine particulates all through the system.

 

[markalot]

I have 3 containers of reef mud in my sump. You know what, it makes a great frag rack, I just stick the plugs into the mud and done. Unfortunately I don't know if my low nitrates are a result of the mud or the Matrix.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I have 3 containers of reef mud in my sump. You know what, it makes a great frag rack, I just stick the plugs into the mud and done. Unfortunately I don't know if my low nitrates are a result of the mud or the Matrix.

You will probably never know unless you take one of them out. Did you put both mud and matrix at the same time?

I used to use mud with caulepra in a hang-on-back refugium when I had a nano tank seven years ago. It worked quite well. Unless you have a deep layer of mud, probably matrix is responsible for keeping nitrates low.

 

[reefmutt]

I have 3 containers of reef mud in my sump. You know what, it makes a great frag rack, I just stick the plugs into the mud and done. Unfortunately I don't know if my low nitrates are a result of the mud or the Matrix.

well, Mark... that's a bit sneaky of you..
how long have you been hiding the 'secret ingredients' in your sump?:smokin:

 

[markalot]

well, Mark... that's a bit sneaky of you..
how long have you been hiding the 'secret ingredients' in your sump?:smokin:

A year? I put it in during the worst of the crash. A random recommendation that didn't seem to do any harm but questionable benefits.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Aquaforest AF Vitality-

I abandoned the test today after concluding that my tank inhabitants do not seem to have benefitted from this product. The test began on 25th April. I dosed 7 times, last of which was this morning.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Having tested Triton zinc, manganese and AF vitamin additions to my reef and realised that they did not enhance the health and well being of my corals as well as their colours, I have decided to keep it simple and stick with only NP-Bacto-Balance and trace elements that are part of the product range of Tropic Marin's Bio-Actif system. I have also stopped using KZ sponge power and will stop using Brightwell Aquatics Koral Color next Friday, but will continue to use TM Pro-Coral Iodine.

There is one more product within Tropic Marin's Bio-Actif range that compliments NP-Bacto-Balance. It is called Reef Actif. Some claim that it is similar to KZ ZEOzym. I have done extensive reading on a German forum and feel convinced that it will compliment NP-Bacto-Balance providing that I use it sparingly within a seven day period. This is an established product with good user reviews. I will begin my own experiment in three weeks time.

Watch this space.

 

[reefmutt]

Interesting.. when I read biopolymers, I assume a carbon source of some kind. But I really don't know..
Curious to watch your tests.
Bulent, I've asked this before, I know, but what trace elements are contained in the TM products you'll continue to use?
Might as well have it here..
So, iodine you'll continue with..

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Interesting.. when I read biopolymers, I assume a carbon source of some kind. But I really don't know..
Curious to watch your tests.
Bulent, I've asked this before, I know, but what trace elements are contained in the TM products you'll continue to use?
Might as well have it here..
So, iodine you'll continue with..

Yes, you are right Matt. Reef Actif contains biopolymers, which is essentially an organic carbon source. Dosing both Reef Actif and NP-Bacto-Balance will make KZ sponge power redundant as sponges, giant feather duster worms and coco worm will get enough nutrients from these two products to thrive.

TM Bacto-Balance contains K+ elements (i.e. contain barium, boron, chromium, cobalt, copper, iron, manganese, nickel, strontium and zinc in pure mineral form). I used to dose K+ elements additionally, but once Bacto-Balance dose reaches to a certain point iron contained in both products triggers bryopsis (not both at the same time).

I also dose A- elements (i.e. bromine, fluorine, iodine, lithium, vanadium, molybdenum and selenium in pure mineral form).

Hans-Werner Balling does not recommend additional iron dosing when A- elements is used, but dosing additional iodine (in the form of Lugol's solution) 3 drops per week has not caused caused any issues so far.

 

[Big E]

Having tested Triton zinc, manganese and AF vitamin additions to my reef and realised that they did not enhance the health and well being of my corals as well as their colours, I have decided to keep it simple and stick with only NP-Bacto-Balance and trace elements that are part of the product range of Tropic Marin's Bio-Actif system. I have also stopped using KZ sponge power and will stop using Brightwell Aquatics Koral Color next Friday, but will continue to use TM Pro-Coral Iodine.

There is one more product within Tropic Marin's Bio-Actif range that compliments NP-Bacto-Balance. It is called Reef Actif. Some claim that it is similar to KZ ZEOzym. I have done extensive reading on a German forum and feel convinced that it will compliment NP-Bacto-Balance providing that I use it sparingly within a seven day period. This is an established product with good user reviews. I will begin my own experiment in three weeks time.

Watch this space.

I think this is an excellent plan for a lot of reasons.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I think this is an excellent plan for a lot of reasons.

Thanks for your endorsement of my plan Ed.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks for the run down on your additions. Since you are already adding Zinc and manganese, probably makes sense your extra additions didn't make a big difference..
Vitamins.. well.. although I am adding some, I am not convinced of their benefits in a system where there are adequately fed fish and measurable nutrients.. not to mention added micro elements. ..

Having tested Triton zinc, manganese and AF vitamin additions to my reef and realised that they did not enhance the health and well being of my corals as well as their colours, I have decided to keep it simple and stick with only NP-Bacto-Balance and trace elements that are part of the product range of Tropic Marin's Bio-Actif system. I have also stopped using KZ sponge power and will stop using Brightwell Aquatics Koral Color next Friday, but will continue to use TM Pro-Coral Iodine.

There is one more product within Tropic Marin's Bio-Actif range that compliments NP-Bacto-Balance. It is called Reef Actif. Some claim that it is similar to KZ ZEOzym. I have done extensive reading on a German forum and feel convinced that it will compliment NP-Bacto-Balance providing that I use it sparingly within a seven day period. This is an established product with good user reviews. I will begin my own experiment in three weeks time.

Watch this space.

Bulent are you expecting a nutrient reduction from this new addition? Or a shift in nutrient levels?