my house reef (211 g.)
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Firmer colors were the first step. Certain colors then got a little browner. The density of the symbiosis algaes is the reason for this development. The colors of the corals are "covered" at increased density of the zooxanthels. The colors of the corals are not formed by the zooxanthels but by proteins in the tissue of the coral.
TryTheChi
Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7086660#post7086660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
...........and Biotim is a carbon source for what?...........bacteria maybe
Hi Kirsten
I like your "reefer stabs reefer in Back over quarerel"
Very funny.Its worth having a careful read of Iwan's summary above - and I did a summary also on page 18 which may also help understand the Iwan Method - taken together it should give an idea of how it all hangs together. Once you read these through - please do post any Qs if your thinking of trying the Iwan Method out. Its important to get a good mental picture of the whole approach - and not just focus on one of the areas such as Prodi, or zeo or Nightsun, or T5s.
Iwan has inspired a fair number of people to try out his approach, and so the good thing on this thread is that there is an emerging group of quality reefers with substantial experience of other approaches who are developing practicle experience in the Iwan Method to draw on. This is a non commercial thread - and so you'll get honnest 'consumer' experience of following a probiotic based methodology.
Cheers for now
Simon
kimoyo
Active member
Iwan - Have you ever run your tank skimmerless and how were the results?
To get the low nutrient environment you are using bacteria and a bacteria food source. Once nutrients are sequestered by the bacteria are you skimming bacteria out to remove nutrients from the system?
Also, how are the corals assimilating the amino acids? Couldn't the bacteria be using the amino acids dosed for the corals? Thanks.
To get the low nutrient environment you are using bacteria and a bacteria food source. Once nutrients are sequestered by the bacteria are you skimming bacteria out to remove nutrients from the system?
Also, how are the corals assimilating the amino acids? Couldn't the bacteria be using the amino acids dosed for the corals? Thanks.
You continue to impress me with your understanding of your system.
TryTheChi
Member
Hi Rich - I'm not familiar with that product and dont know how it compares with AAHC - but an indication for using aminos is whether the sps look washed out so I guess its a matter of observing how they are and dosing in response to that - which is trial and error at first until one gets familiar with thier reactions to different dosing regimes.
Zeo recomend that AAHC is dosed daily (at night) - 1 drop per 25g and tritrating up to 3 drops per 25g - but it is difficult to know if that would apply to salifert AA also as thier make up could be different.
Sorry I cant be more helpful
Cheers
Simon
kirstenk
23.5 Degrees
Hey Simon,
I have been following this thread off and on since Iwan first posted back in November. His tank IS inspiring! I also actively read the Zeo Forums and pretty much anything I can Google on the subject.
Nutrient reduction driven by bacteria has always made sense to me but in the US there were no resources for Bacteria products that I knew of so I have been using small amounts of Vodka with good results however as Iwan stated Vodka increases all bacteria in the aquarium and some may not be so desirable. He goes on to state that....By the bonus of selected bacterium and carbon sources the desired bacteria remain dominant.
Makes total sense so now that Prodibio is available here (I got mine yesterday) I am anxious to try some of their products. I will also be using some Reef-resh from PolypLabs.
This is a non commercial thread - and so you'll get honnest 'consumer' experience of following a probiotic based methodology.
Yes, this is why I decided to post. I will not be following one company's or person's method as my tank is different, as are all our tanks.
I think Iwan summed it up best when he said he watches his corals and from there makes his decisions. That is what I try to do.
I hope to contribute my experiences with others.
I have been following this thread off and on since Iwan first posted back in November. His tank IS inspiring! I also actively read the Zeo Forums and pretty much anything I can Google on the subject.
Nutrient reduction driven by bacteria has always made sense to me but in the US there were no resources for Bacteria products that I knew of so I have been using small amounts of Vodka with good results however as Iwan stated Vodka increases all bacteria in the aquarium and some may not be so desirable. He goes on to state that....By the bonus of selected bacterium and carbon sources the desired bacteria remain dominant.
Makes total sense so now that Prodibio is available here (I got mine yesterday) I am anxious to try some of their products. I will also be using some Reef-resh from PolypLabs.
This is a non commercial thread - and so you'll get honnest 'consumer' experience of following a probiotic based methodology.
Yes, this is why I decided to post. I will not be following one company's or person's method as my tank is different, as are all our tanks.
I think Iwan summed it up best when he said he watches his corals and from there makes his decisions. That is what I try to do.
I hope to contribute my experiences with others.
h20cooled
Premium Member
Simon,
Thank you for the info. Some of my SPS lately have been washed out and more brown. So, I guess that mine overdosing on the AA, I think I'm going to stop with the saltfert AA and see what happens.
One question though, I notice that the Reef Booster & Bioptim all contain AA. Is the amount of AA in there enough for a tank or dose it really depend on the size of the tank and the amount being used?
So, washing out of SPS is overdosing. How can you tell when you are in the right range of a dose?
Thanx,
Rich
Thank you for the info. Some of my SPS lately have been washed out and more brown. So, I guess that mine overdosing on the AA, I think I'm going to stop with the saltfert AA and see what happens.
One question though, I notice that the Reef Booster & Bioptim all contain AA. Is the amount of AA in there enough for a tank or dose it really depend on the size of the tank and the amount being used?
So, washing out of SPS is overdosing. How can you tell when you are in the right range of a dose?
Thanx,
Rich
hey h2o I am not sure which of us read that wrong but what I got from chi was if your corals are washed out you may need the aminos. I didn't get that washed out is overdosing and I reread it a couple times to be sure.
on the other hand washed out could be alot of things. old lights, or iron deficiency or maybe potassium deficiency. it is so hard to know without trial and erroring every tank seperately because as has been stated several times all of our tanks are so different. I myself am torn on what to try I have always been one to try and figure out why before I react so I am stuck in the middle wondering which way to go. I have been using prodibio for almost 3 weeks and I don't see anything different as of yet. maybe a slight bit more polyp extension but I cannot really say for sure. you want to see something so bad it makes it hard to realize what really has happened. I do think the diatoms on the glass might have slowed down some also. no color changes though.
on the other hand washed out could be alot of things. old lights, or iron deficiency or maybe potassium deficiency. it is so hard to know without trial and erroring every tank seperately because as has been stated several times all of our tanks are so different. I myself am torn on what to try I have always been one to try and figure out why before I react so I am stuck in the middle wondering which way to go. I have been using prodibio for almost 3 weeks and I don't see anything different as of yet. maybe a slight bit more polyp extension but I cannot really say for sure. you want to see something so bad it makes it hard to realize what really has happened. I do think the diatoms on the glass might have slowed down some also. no color changes though.
h20cooled
Premium Member
Well maybe I did read it wrong then, I'm not sure. All I know is that a couple of my SPS specially my Bonsia which used to be a very nice purple is now it is a brown with only a couple of spots of purple.
The only thing that I have changed is:
1) Started feeding daily instead of every other day.
2) Started with activated carbon in a fluidized reactor.
3) Started with Saltfert Coralline aminoacids.
4) Started Prodobio 3 products.
I do about 15g water changes once a month on my 50g tank. I know I should do them more often but to many things seem to come up. Other then the above items I do not add anything else to my tank. I have a very powerfull skimmer that takes a ton of junk out.
Any ideas?
Rich
The only thing that I have changed is:
1) Started feeding daily instead of every other day.
2) Started with activated carbon in a fluidized reactor.
3) Started with Saltfert Coralline aminoacids.
4) Started Prodobio 3 products.
I do about 15g water changes once a month on my 50g tank. I know I should do them more often but to many things seem to come up. Other then the above items I do not add anything else to my tank. I have a very powerfull skimmer that takes a ton of junk out.
Any ideas?
Rich
TryTheChi
Member
Thats what I was trying to say Rob
Have you been taking b/a photos? IME the changes are so gradual - the day on day changes are hardly perceptable.H20 - have you had a look at Zeo Guide 1.02? It sounds like you are getting the same symptoms of nutrient starvation as I had in some corals - hense the suggestion to feed them. K - Ballance (potassium supplement) has also been indicated for fading - but they reckon that montis show the first symptoms. CA reefer posted some b/a pics on a zeo thread.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...=793081&perpage=25&highlight=zeo&pagenumber=3
It might be worth trying taking the carbon off line if its a high adsorbant type.
I think all our experiences are reinforcing the slowly slowly approach and making one change at a time. :mixed:
Cheers
Simon
kirstenk
23.5 Degrees
Rich......Another thought might be added nutrients causing your browning.
The only thing that I have changed is:
1) Started feeding daily instead of every other day.
2) Started with activated carbon in a fluidized reactor.
3) Started with Saltfert Coralline aminoacids.
4) Started Prodobio 3 products.
#1, #3 and #4 (reef booster) all add nutrients to your tank. It may be that the bacteria added so far is not productive enough to handle the other additions?
I added my first ampules of BioDigest and Bioptim today and won't be dosing any AA or reef booster unless I see a definite over lighting of my corals.
The only thing that I have changed is:
1) Started feeding daily instead of every other day.
2) Started with activated carbon in a fluidized reactor.
3) Started with Saltfert Coralline aminoacids.
4) Started Prodobio 3 products.
#1, #3 and #4 (reef booster) all add nutrients to your tank. It may be that the bacteria added so far is not productive enough to handle the other additions?
I added my first ampules of BioDigest and Bioptim today and won't be dosing any AA or reef booster unless I see a definite over lighting of my corals.
h20cooled
Premium Member
I think you are both right. This wasn't all at once though, the carbon was about a week before the Prodobio, and I mainly started it because of the leather corals in with my SPS. The saltfert aa I have been dosing for a little over a month before I started with the Prodobio products. The problem is I started feeding everyday at the sametime I started with the Prodobio.
I think I will go back to the every other day feeding and only add the coral foods (cyclo, oyster eggs) once weekly.
Yeah I've got before and after pics and the coral has definantly lost most of its purple color for brown. Where do I find the Zeo Guide 1.02?
I'll check out the K - Ballance.
I think I will go back to the every other day feeding and only add the coral foods (cyclo, oyster eggs) once weekly.
Yeah I've got before and after pics and the coral has definantly lost most of its purple color for brown. Where do I find the Zeo Guide 1.02?
I'll check out the K - Ballance.
melev
Well-known member
Rich, typically whenever SPS turn brown, this is an indication of high nutrients. As this load drops, the corals color up. Which is why I believe they look better after a water change, as nutrients are diluted by the new water.
You might try doing a water change every two weeks and see how your tank responds to it. I have a feeling you'll be impressed.
Now if I could only take my own advice.
Hi Kimoyo
No, I did never try to run my system without a skimmer. I am sure that a system can keep the nutrients low also without skimmer but with stable DSB, LR and bacterium bonus. However, the supply with oxygen and the reduction of organic waste BEFORE they are changed biologically are the advantage of an skimmer.
Try this link: http://www.korallen-zucht.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdfs/Dosing_English.pdf
Yes, I still test these amino acids. I am convinced that it is a high-quality product. Up till now I do not see any great disadvantages or advantages compared to the AA's I used before . I use the reefstar AA's only since three weeks.
Genetically predisposed coloration issues aside, melev is entirely correct ... "Browning" in SPS = Increase in CSD ("cell specific density").
CSD refers to the number of zooxanthellae per cnidarian host cell. In terms of the effect(s) of "feeding SPS", this one might be worth a read ...
Interactions between zooplankton feeding, photosynthesis and skeletal growth in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata.
Fanny Houlbrèque, Eric Tambutté, Denis Allemand and Christine Ferrier-Pagès
Journal of Experimental Biology 207, 1461-1469 (2004)
(Single ZeoThread Post with JEB Links to Cited Article)
(ZeoThread where the post resides)
FYI
As folks develop husbandry strategies regarding how they're going to manipulate zooxanthellae density via "nutrients" (... as opposed to thermal manipulation, or chemical supplements which stimulate controlled expulsion ...), they may wish to keep in mind that they're dealing with two mechanisms: (1) nutrients absorbed from the water column through tissue layers; and (2) nutrients produced by "post-feeding" digestive processes of the host cnidarian which are then translocated to the zooxanthellae.
Captive ecosystems which utilize "fish poop" as a coral nutrient source (no "coral food" product supplementation) are primarily engaged with mechanism (1). Captive ecosystems which contain an oligotrophic-like bacterial guild are primarily engaged with mechanism (2).
In terms of MAA biosynthesis, the mechanism that is chosen is ultimately unimportant as zooxanthellae are the "production site" for MAA ... zooxanthellae could care less about our "husbandry strategies", so long as they get what they need.
In terms of accessory pigmentation biosynthesis by the cnidarian host, the mechanism that is chosen is VERY important ... MAA and MAA-precursors can also be introduced via dietary sources.
HTH
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