my house reef (211 g.)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7093246#post7093246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Rich, typically whenever SPS turn brown, this is an indication of high nutrients. As this load drops, the corals color up. Which is why I believe they look better after a water change, as nutrients are diluted by the new water.


Isnt browning multifactorial? Contra indications with non zb4, non food zeo elements include browning as do Nightsun in overdose alongside high po4 and no3.

My bad if I misread H20's description - but I understood the issue to be fading and browing. H20 has already been dosing prodi for a while and has seen greater coloration in other sps - probably due to a lower nutrient environment and- at least in my experience - the challenge then becomes the tricky ballancing act of adding nutrients and tweaking coloration with elements.

Pics speak a 1000 words:D

Appols if I have misread you H20

Cheers

Simon
 
Here is a summary about colored stone corals
I wrote an article about that for a french magazine here are some important parameters:


Colored stone coral: A wish of all stone coral friends.
The care of stone corals is possible since few years.
It was made possible by knowledge of the needs and the development of technological facilities which can satisfy these needs. Every stone coral holder knows that the keeping of these beautiful animals is bound to certain prerequisites. Sufficient light, few nutrients, supply with trace elements and calcium.These are well known facts.
Much has already been discussed and published about this.
But what exactly influences now the colors?
Why are stone corals colored?

Ima1.jpg


Stone corals have the ability to build chromo proteins (Pocciloporine).
These pigments determine the colors. The symbiosis algae (zooxanthellae) don't determine the color.
As higher the density of the symbiosis algae is, than darker and browner the colors are.
Ima2.jpg

Ima3.jpg



But what influences the colors?

The quality of the incident light:
Light quantity and radiation spectrum. Corals need light!

The available nutrients in the water:
Too many nutrients cause an increase of the zooxanthellae. The result is a covering of the colors.


The diet condition of the corals:
Corals with limitations don't use the available energy to build pigments.

The genetic competence to build up colors:
Some corals do not have the genetic competence for the coloring.
They also cannot get "colored" under optimal conditions.


Wrong opinions:

I like to do away with the common wrong opinions in this place.

The zooxanthellae give the coral their colors:

Wrong!The zooxanthellae (symbiosis algae) fulfils other functions. They are responsible for the brown ground shade. This means: More symbiosis algae results in a covering of the colors. We have brown corals.

Trace elements bring color:


Incomplete statement! The observation that a dosage of trace elements improves the colors has nothing to do with the primary effect of the color formation. One assumes that the production of pigments (chromoproteins) goes about metabolism processes of the coral. Trace elements are components of enzymes without which color pigmentation cannot be carried out.
So does the coloration become rock javelin by trace element bonus?
If the coloring increases after a trace element bonus, then has been a lack of trace element before.
That explains the observation that many tanks a dosage of trace elements do not increase the coloring. If sufficient trace elements are available, then no increase of the chromoprotein synthesis is reached by an additional application.

Few nutrients = colored corals:
The statement: ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œColored corals can be reached by reducing nutrients! If you reduce nutrients youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll get best colors!ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ is incomplete. A reduction of the available nutrients results in the decreasing of the zooxanthellae density. The synthesis of chromoproteine isn't concerned by it at all. Spectral shares of the light put the formation of pigments into walk! The light quality, (the intensity of the radiation, the spectrum and the light duration) is responsible for the formation of chromoproteins.
The coral needs energy for the formation of pigments. It makes sense that a coral only put this energy into the production of color giving pigments if it has met its basic requirements sufficiently. The formation of color is a "luxury good". A hungry coral won't waste valuable energy for the synthesis of color constituents.
 
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For the Record:

4/01/06 Started Prodibio BioDigest/Biotpim, 1 vial of each. I will refrain from using ReefBooster until I see a definite over lightening of corals.

Tank Specs:

150g display w/DSB 170g total
10 Fish
Carbon 24/7
Po4 Reactor off/on
Ozone
Two ASM G3's
Two 400W XM20K One 175W XM20K
Randy's 2 Part
1ml Vodka Daily

Salinity 1.026
CA 400
ALK 3.2meq/L (I am lowering this #)
Mg 1200
NO3 2.5
PO4 0.0 (color meter would rather see 0.01-0.02 hence the on/off reactor)
Temp 79.3-80.3

I am hoping that use of Bacteria products will stop my occasional cyano outbreaks, allow more fish with more feedings and a better overall coloration of corals. Time will tell.

Now for the pics. Not the best but should be useful in determining coloration change......if any!

LEFT SIDE

prebacleft.jpg


RIGHT SIDE

prebiort.jpg
 
Iwan - great article! Thanks for sharing!

I've noticed that when adding new frags some of them begin to develop a florescent green pigment over time (begins at 6 - 8 weeks). They did not show any green coloration when I brought them home. This begins at the tips (some stop and maintain the green color at the tips only). Over time the green color may work it's way down the base on some of the frags until the entire frag looks like this. Not all my newly added frags do this.

After reading your article, would this would be an indication that my UV radiation levels are too high?

My tank is 6' long, 24" deep, 180gal tank with 2 400watt 10K MHs. I do not have supplement lighting, but am looking at the T-5s. Just haven't figured out the best configuration where they will fit in my hood enclosure.
 
Wow, great information. I'm reading through the zeovit info now.

One question though. Should I still continue feeding cyclopeze and oyster eggs once a week? I know that the SPS are supposed to eat the oyster eggs and the cyclopezes is supposed to be for LPS. Also the reef booster is coral food to.

So, I guess what I should do is stop with the coral foods and reef booster and wait until I see lightening and the start with one thing at a time (i.e. Reef Booster). Also go back to every other day feeding of fish.
 
So, I guess what I should do is stop with the coral foods and reef booster and wait until I see lightening and the start with one thing at a time (i.e. Reef Booster). Also go back to every other day feeding of fish.


Well.......that's what I would do. :) Your description of washed out, dull, more brown leads me to believe that an excess nutrient problem exists. Where, really light, bleached, transparent seem like nutrient starvation. HTH
 
kirstenk, I think you are right.

So, from what I got out of the Zeovit guide and Iwans post is.

High nutrients will cause the browning of my corals; so I need to cut back on the foods.

Brown slime algae is a sign of overdosing on AA; I don't have any slime so I'm not overdosing which is good.

So, as I said I'm going to cut back on the foods and the amount until I see an improvement in color then SLOWLY start adding food. Also weekly small (5%) water changes are the way to go, so I'm going to work on this also.

So, here are some pictures.

Bonsia before with good color: (Picture taken 11/25/05)
Bonsia.jpg


Now: (Picture taken 4/2/06)
corals089.jpg

corals091.jpg


Verrucosa before: (sorry for the blurry pic, but you get the idea of the color). (Picture taken Aug 2005)
Verrucosa.jpg


Now: (Picture taken 4/2/06)
coralstanks062.jpg


Thank you everyone for the help.

Rich
 
I used to teach science for a living, so ... like Iwan ... I too have an interest in presenting both historical and contemporary research-based literature in an effort to counter-balance the mind-numbing array of opinions which masquerade as information in reefkeeping cyberspace.

With due respect to Iwan's obvious mastery (where's the "bowdown" smilie when I need it?), one of his recent posts includes some assertions which ... while being easily digestible to the magazine reading crowd ... are significantly incomplete in terms of the peer-reviewed literature.

Please note that I didn't say his post contained information that was wrong ... I said "incomplete." I also don't mean to perpetrate a thread "hijack" ... apologies if it comes across that way ... and profound apologies if I come across as disrespectful to either Iwan or the RC community engaged with this thread.

That being necessarily said ...



Stone corals have the ability to build chromo proteins (Pocciloporine). These pigments determine the colors. The symbiosis algae (zooxanthellae) don't determine the color. ...
While it is true that nonzooxanthellate derived pigments profoundly impact coloration of corals (more so than many high post-count RC regulars acknowledge), pocciloporins are but a group of a much larger set of compounds. Pocciloporins are but one of MANY chromoproteins which influence what humans perceive as coral "coloration." Astaxanthins, ketones, carotenoids, xanthophylls, melanins, purines, ommochromes, porphyrins, to list but a few, are ALL involved ... and the list becomes more defined in the literature each year. To assert that pocciloporins are the determinant compounds for coral coloration is ... well ... forgive me ... misleading.

BTW ... pocilloporins are related to the monomeric green fluorescent protein and the tetrameric DsRed fluorescent proteins, which have widespread use as biotechnological tools. They do NOT constitute the exclusive set of fluorescent pigments in corals. (SCIRUS search results for keyword "pocciloporin")

Zooxanthellae DO in fact directly synthesize proteins that are directly expressed in terms of fluorescence ... among these are MAA (mycosporine-like amino acids), flavines, urobilines, and pterines. "These compounds are responsible for some of the blue, green, and pink fluorescent colors found in so many corals of the reef. ... Many corals in the aquarium become fluorescent green under strong lighting, and it is likely that these pigments are responsible for the color change (Borneman 2001)." Just because a compound is colorless in a test tube does NOT mean that it lacks either fluorescent or refractory properties in situ.

This is to say nothing of the role that pigment precursors synthesized by zooxanthellae play in the synthesis of nonzooxanthellate pigments within cnidarian cells.

I have no objection to the assertion that nonzooxanthellate derived pigments may end up being the most significant influence of a given specimen's coloration, but to say that "these pigments determine the colors" is ... well ... incomplete.


Too many nutrients cause an increase of the zooxanthellae. The result is a covering of the colors.
No problem with the first part (having recently asserted it myself), but ... is it being suggested that zooxanthellae (the vast majority of which reside in the gastrodermis below the epidermis) are "covering the colors" of nonzooxanthellate pigments (which are primarily located in the epidermis above the zooxanthellae)? Hmmm ... maybe a German-English translation glitch involving "covering"? Even so ... if the CSD of zooxanthellae are capable of determining the color of a coral specimen, not because of pigmentation, but because of the CSD's effect on the refraction of light, how can it be asserted that MAA is not doing the same thing?



The zooxanthellae give the coral their colors:

Wrong!The zooxanthellae (symbiosis algae) fulfils other functions. They are responsible for the brown ground shade. This means: More symbiosis algae results in a covering of the colors. We have brown corals.

See above responses ... I would respectfully assert that it is not that simple and that zooxanthellae are directly involved in the biosynthesis of compounds which result in what we refer to as "color". The literature simply abounds with references to the functioning of zooxanthellae in what Humans refer to as "coloration."

For example, anyone interested in the biochemical mechanisms that I'm refering to might also be interested in this ...

The Symbiotic Anthozoan: A Physiological Chimera between Alga and Animal.
Paola Furla, Denis Allemand, J. Malcolm Shick, Christine Ferrier-Pagès, Sophie Richier, Amandine Plantivaux, Pierre-Laurent Merle and Sylvie Tambutté
Integrative and Comparative Biology 2005 45(4):595-604

(Single ZeoPost with link to the article)



The coral needs energy for the formation of pigments. It makes sense that a coral only put this energy into the production of color giving pigments if it has met its basic requirements sufficiently. The formation of color is a "luxury good". A hungry coral won't waste valuable energy for the synthesis of color constituents.
"Formation of color" is hardly a "luxury good".

Consider ... "Invertebrates may contain more chemical forms of pigments than vertebrates, and they are largely involved in cryptic coloration or aposematic coloration adaptations. These defenses operate by camouflaging the corals or by warning predators not to come near or eat them, respectively (Borneman 2001)."

Aposematic: Coloration or other features that advertise noxious properties; warning coloration. Marked with bright or contrasting colors as a warning that the animal is venomous or noxious.
(Google Definitions of "Aposematic" Link)

In other words ... coloration is a SURVIVAL mechanism. This is NOT something we biologists refer to as a mere "luxury." Expending energy resources into a survival mechanism is hardly a waste of valuble energy.



Not meaning to "nit-pick" here ... Iwan is great, I love his posts, and the awesome mastery of his captive ecosystem and his methodology speaks for itself (More pictures please).

But let's get the science straight ... yes?



Not JMO ... this is the science.
:D
 
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Iwan, I would like to congratulate you on a very inspiring tank!! I just crawled from under the rock and found this thread (linked from another). I will have to read this from the beginning.
 
That is some great info mesocosm. I don't think Iwan or anyone else here would be offended by your knowledgable insight backed by references.:) Please keep it coming.
 
:fun4:

:fun4:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7096188#post7096188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
I used to teach science for a living, so ...

But let's get the science straight ... yes?

......the mind-numbing array of opinions which masquerade as information in reefkeeping cyberspace.....

Not JMO ... this is the science.
:D

:fun4:

Meso - that is science byond my understanding sir:D I dont know if this is possible - but I have a request:

Would you - for those of us not as professional as you in the detail - set out in plain english the order of significance the factors which unperpin 'browing', 'darkening' and 'fading' and the remedial action that can be taken to promote best color outcomes. Plain english would help duffers like me:)

I recall your frag tank is very impressive - so clearly you have the ability to translate peer reviewed knowledge into outcomes.

It could look something like this:

'Dummies Guide to SPS Coloration'

Section 1: Browning:

Definition: Pic ie.

Factors which cause coral browning in order of significance:
1
2
3

Remedial actions:
1
2etc

Section 2 Darkining:

Definition: Pic ie.

Factors which cause coral darkening in order of significance:
1
2
3

Remedial actions:
1
2etc

Section 3 - Lightening....etc etc



I know its asking alot - but I for one would find it helpful and it may help address "......the mind-numbing array of opinions which masquerade as information in reefkeeping cyberspace....."

If you have a paypal account I'll send you some $$'s:cool: Share ware your brain;)

Cheers

Simon
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7094694#post7094694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
For the Record:

4/01/06 Started Prodibio BioDigest/Biotpim, 1 vial of each. I will refrain from using ReefBooster until I see a definite over lightening of corals.


Very nice Kirstenk - look forward to following any progress.

Cheers

Simon
 
TryTheChi

Hows the rowa carbon.?? I did a phostphate test on it and it was over .2ppm.
Did two test to make sure it was not a false reading
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7099769#post7099769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tangblack
TryTheChi

Hows the rowa carbon.?? I did a phostphate test on it and it was over .2ppm.
Did two test to make sure it was not a false reading

Hi Alois
Yes - they do state that there is some PO4 leached - however the tank remains 0 PO4 (deltec Merric test) and there is no problem algae anywhere (except a small patch rooted in a bit if pipe organ coral - must be detritis causing localised PO4) It is very adsorbant - hense the passive use in the trickle filters.

We tried it on a friends' f/w peat bog tank - and a tiny amount cleared his tank of tanins.

.2ppm is high though :eek: I have a facility to place aragonite under the modules containing the carbon which should act to sequester any leached PO4.

Are you using it?

Cheers

Simon
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7096898#post7096898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis
That is some great info mesocosm. I don't think Iwan or anyone else here would be offended by your knowledgable insight backed by references.:) Please keep it coming.
Travis ... thanks for the comments. It's just that since I'm interested in being a reasonable guest in JohnL's house, it occurs to me that I need to be inoffensive with what I say and how I present myself. After all, I'm a moderator in another cyberspace which has ... how shall I say? ... a "history" with RC.

More to the point ... the last thing anyone needs is "mesocosm's take on things" in the middle of Iwan's thread. The very last thing I want to do is deflect from what Iwan is saying. People want to hear him ... not me. I just felt that a little precision was in order.


JMO
:D
 
Re: :fun4:

Re: :fun4:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7097043#post7097043 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TryTheChi
:fun4:

Meso - that is science byond my understanding sir:D I dont know if this is possible - but I have a request:

Would you - for those of us not as professional as you in the detail - set out in plain english the order of significance the factors which unperpin 'browing', 'darkening' and 'fading' and the remedial action that can be taken to promote best color outcomes. Plain english would help duffers like me:) ...
Thanks, but ... you (and everyone else in this thread) are quite capable of "getting" what I'm posting, as you good folks have demonstrated repeatedly throughout this thread. What we're discussing with regards to "The Iwan Method" ... and its kaleidoscope of product alternatives ... is a part of a much broader "conceptualization" which is clearly the first replicable and reliable SPS husbandry alternative to emerge in the marine ornamental industry since the introduction of the "Berlin-style" (with all of its various permutations) in the early 1990's.

This is no small thing ... and you all should give yourselves appropriate credit.

With regards to "browning out" ... I think Iwan's explanation is quite fundamentally sound. My only reservations had to do with the specific "role" of zooxanthellae, and the "energy budget priority" that is directed towards aposematic/cryptic coloration.


JMO
:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7104108#post7104108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
, I'm a moderator in another cyberspace which has ... how shall I say? ... a "history" with RC.

More to the point ... the last thing anyone needs is "mesocosm's take on things" in the middle of Iwan's thread. The very last thing I want to do is deflect from what Iwan is saying. People want to hear him ... not me. I just felt that a little precision was in order.


JMO
:D

Hey Gary

Your not getting out of it that easily:D :D lol.

You have no 'history' here.
Personally I dont think your contributions are taking away from Iwan's at all - after all his is IMO the MOST beautiful tank I have seen - and pics speak volumes:) BUT, I would appreciate it if you followed through with your take on translating theory into practice regarding sps coloration. That why we are here friend...we are all learning:) Its all very interesting understanding the mechanisims in nature, but something else translating that into husbandary practice. Your bac thread over there is very open to this (and other) approachs so I'v always percieved you as objective :cool: Infact your contribution to the prodibio thread over there was a model of openness.

For the sake of the poor suffering corals - go on....:thumbsup:

Cheers

Simon
 
Re: Re: :fun4:

Re: Re: :fun4:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7104583#post7104583 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm


This is no small thing ... and you all should give yourselves appropriate credit.

:D

Opps - we overlapped.

Just to clarify- (as we are two countries (8 if we include Aus NZ C SA Irl and Ch) divided by a common language - ) - I was using self depricating humour (a British cultural quirk) that applied to me not to any other posters on this thread.

Cheers

Simon
 
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