My Ich Experience
- Thread starter saltyputty
- Start date
Patrick12
Crypt Assassin
True. But there are a plethora of wrong ones.
As someone with significant experience in battling cyptocaryon irritans and fully understanding the lifecycle of the parasite and how it is killed and weakened, I can tell you that none of the "reef safe"....NONE OF THEM....are proven to work. If they were, you'd hear more about it in the hobby literature and not just on forums where anyone and everyone is encouraged to communicate......despite the factual basis of their claims. It is good for us all to post our experiences and that is how the hobby can move forward and maybe improve someone's situation.
So am I saying that supposed reef safe additives have never worked...not at all. There are those folks out there who have added these items and seen the retreat of the parasite in their system. They are the minority. And while their experience is not to be discarded, it should not be thrown in the face of all the research on these items that has been performed and the results that have shown dismal cure results. Just like those people who have used prayer and other non medicinal means to "cure" cancer. I would never advocate that someone not pray, but these are not accepted as "proven" means by most. That is because they have not worked for the majority of folks that have tried them. I would urge cancer patients to seek the more traditional cures and supplement with prayer.
In regards to these reef safe medicines, we are not talking about things that have not been studied......many have. They might help some folks, but they do not provide the definitive cure to the majority of those that use them. That is why they are so strongly discounted. Copper remains the gold standard to CURE crypt infestations. I have also used hypo and hypo is reported to work in the literature if applied correctly.
There is an immunity factor in the eradication of the parasites from fish. Boosting immunity can allow the fish to get the upperhand. If you are seeing fish becoming increasingly covered in the parasite with each subsequent outbreak, then immunity is not the route for you as you are losing that battle. There is some new research suggesting that after 11 months of fish surviving in a crypt infested system, that the parasite loses a great deal of its virility and the fish seem to survive with it just fine. But, how many make it to 11 months? I submit...not many.
It is sad to see so many of these discussions turn to "p i s sing contests". There has been some good dialogue on this thread and hopefully...if nothing else....it will encourage those that really want to learn about this scourge of the hobby to find the reputable sources of info and read up. Of course, hopefully in the process, they will learn how to avoid it in the first place....that is my wish.
Piece out.
Hey patrick...I was just saying a friendly goodbye to the poster who was "leaving" for the 2nd or 3rd time (lost count)
Now, if you want to debate my signature I think that may be a different issue that I really don't feel adds to this thread, but with that as a coarse segue... In short, my siggy is an often used self sealing argument (hence its fallacy and the implied sarcasm) but that is for each to interpret in their own way. Some might see it as an attempt to keep minds open, others may see it as a desire to promote reckless behavior. I do find it interesting that the more seasoned members of this board are often the first to avoid absolutes.
Not sure where the whole cancer issue is coming up with you but if you do a search of ANY of my posts regarding crypt you may discover my personal preferences regarding treatment. (and gee .... imagine that ... they are those based on research ... not random observation)
Peace back at ya bro...ain't nuttin in life irrevocable cept for death :rollface:
When done incorrectly, yes. However, a properly set up and maintained QT will not have any of these problems, will save much trouble later on. The old adage, "an ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure", comes to mind
BTW, use of peroxide as a parasiticide is not new. Noga even gives dosages for such use, however, with the notation "Not many fish tolerate this treatment".
Bill,
I continue to see the arguments in these threads that "QT stresses fish too much" and "Ich immunity will be obtained after 11 months so all you have to do is keep the fish eating." I remember a couple of stickies in the Fish disease forum referencing some ich studies but they seem to have disappeared. Is there a new paradigm towards marine crypt or is the sky still blue?
I continue to see the arguments in these threads that "QT stresses fish too much" and "Ich immunity will be obtained after 11 months so all you have to do is keep the fish eating." I remember a couple of stickies in the Fish disease forum referencing some ich studies but they seem to have disappeared. Is there a new paradigm towards marine crypt or is the sky still blue?
Bill, The sky is still blue.
The only effective treatments are: copper, hyposalinity or tank transfer coupled with a fishless display for 6 to 11 weeks.I would say the current trend is toward copper treatments with the milder products such as cupramine and pre qt dips( freshwater or formalin) for all new arrivals.
Many can't or don't remove fish for a variety of reasons. I can see it in some cases when a fish can't be caught without doing serious damage to a developed reef tank. In these cases a hope and cope strategy can include a plethora of potentially helpful measures of dubious value,including: uvs, cleaner shrimp, garlic, nutritional supplements,diatom filtration and/or for those so inclined the use of one of the numerous so called reef safe additives, etc.
The 11 month notion comes from a 1995 study by Burgess and Mathews. They were culturing ich for study and fed it a fresh fish every cycle. They aslo treated the fish after a single expsoure. After 34 life cycles spanning 11months the ich expired even though a host was readily available. They attributed this to cell aging. They also found that 82% of fish that survived a significant infestation developed a degree of immunity.
The only effective treatments are: copper, hyposalinity or tank transfer coupled with a fishless display for 6 to 11 weeks.I would say the current trend is toward copper treatments with the milder products such as cupramine and pre qt dips( freshwater or formalin) for all new arrivals.
Many can't or don't remove fish for a variety of reasons. I can see it in some cases when a fish can't be caught without doing serious damage to a developed reef tank. In these cases a hope and cope strategy can include a plethora of potentially helpful measures of dubious value,including: uvs, cleaner shrimp, garlic, nutritional supplements,diatom filtration and/or for those so inclined the use of one of the numerous so called reef safe additives, etc.
The 11 month notion comes from a 1995 study by Burgess and Mathews. They were culturing ich for study and fed it a fresh fish every cycle. They aslo treated the fish after a single expsoure. After 34 life cycles spanning 11months the ich expired even though a host was readily available. They attributed this to cell aging. They also found that 82% of fish that survived a significant infestation developed a degree of immunity.
Patrick12
Crypt Assassin
Actually, only the first part of my reply was directed towards you and your signature. The rest was directed at the thread in general.
As for the cancer treatment...or pick your other malady...I was referring to the fact that many people have tried something and had it work for them. But, many other people have tried to do the exact same thing and had it totally not work for them. My overall point is for those that have a one in a hundred luck streak and have something work for them that probably should not have, should not purport it as a cure and viable remedy for everyone. Specifically, when it is a much studied topic in the mariculture and hobbiest literature and totally goes against teh science. Of course that is my opinion and an opinion of many...dare I even say most. So that is what the cancer analogy was all about.
Additionally, as a believer in Jesus Christ, I would even say death is irrevocable.
saltyputty
New member
wow, still no ich. can you guys believe it?
tmz - i could e-mail you my diploma, but you probably will not believe that either.
i see a lot of reports of the sacred hyposalinity failing, can you believe it?
pretty sure we can keep the prayer talk out of this thread.
tmz - i could e-mail you my diploma, but you probably will not believe that either.
i see a lot of reports of the sacred hyposalinity failing, can you believe it?
pretty sure we can keep the prayer talk out of this thread.
flameangel88
New member
Is Cupramine safe on inverts? According to Seachem it can be easily removed through filtration.
Thanks.
Thanks.
LargeAngels
Premium Member
Cupramine is not safe for inverts.
I'm glad your fish are doing well. Good luck. BTW I have a Master of Science degree and it doesn't give me any authority in these discussions so I never mention it. Send me a copy of your BS diploma if you feel compelled to do so.
I do,personaly, prefer copper or tank transfer treatments over hyposalinity.
LargeAngels
Premium Member
Me too. I think I'll leave this thread. Sounds like he is just trying to stir the pot.
gary faulkner
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12998132#post12998132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnc914
Thought you left a month ago.......
Me too. I think I'll leave this thread. Sounds like he is just trying to stir the pot.
He's trying to prove a point and doesn't realize that he is wrong. All the research that has been done and he just ignores it. And he's not happy that we all won't jump on his misguided bandwagon. Biggest problem is that other newbies will listen to this malarkey and it will continue to plague them. Don't know what is the best way to handle these types, is frustrating though. Oh and he will call us know it alls, when a mirror would work wonders in this regard.
:lol:
saltyputty
New member
When I posted this thread, the furthest thing I expected was the negative response that I received. Not even a welcome to RC or anything, just accusations of lying and outright ignorance.
I did not type a word of a lie here and wanted to give people an idea of what I had done to fight ich in my tank.
I was insulted by being called a liar and the general negative vibe, so I left ( a couple of times).
After giving it some thought, I realized that I should not let negativity get to me, so I came back, if this bothers you so much, you are free to stay off the thread, and if this is really misinformation, as so many of you, with your extensive experience think, report it to the mods and have them delete it
I am still not stirring the pot, and simply updated on my situation.
I am not wrong! I have not lost a fish to ich in this system, using the procedure described, and would use it again under the same circumstances.
Dismissing ideas without trying them is wrong.
I did not type a word of a lie here and wanted to give people an idea of what I had done to fight ich in my tank.
I was insulted by being called a liar and the general negative vibe, so I left ( a couple of times).
After giving it some thought, I realized that I should not let negativity get to me, so I came back, if this bothers you so much, you are free to stay off the thread, and if this is really misinformation, as so many of you, with your extensive experience think, report it to the mods and have them delete it
I am still not stirring the pot, and simply updated on my situation.
I am not wrong! I have not lost a fish to ich in this system, using the procedure described, and would use it again under the same circumstances.
Dismissing ideas without trying them is wrong.
saltyputty
New member
So according to you, my fish are still covered with ich, right? I mean they must be cause I am wrong, and what I did does not work.
Also, there is a difference between sharing a treatment and proving a point. My initial attempt was at sharing a treatment. I never claimed this would work in all cases, simply that it may work as an alternative when fish are eating. Do you see the difference?
Laughable.
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saltyputty
New member
Interestingly enough, Polyp Labs no longer mentions this in their page for the product, only Crystallized Perxide Salts.
http://www.polyplab.com/medic.html
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