My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

[holdyourlight]

the 3 grams/day fishman reccomends for my 125G tank would actually still only be half of what the dosage for Quinine Sulfate (crypto pro) is...

he also told me i do not need to do water changes and that it will be unaffected by light

 

[b0bab0ey]

I'm not saying he's wrong, but I just feel the need to point out the obvious: I'm guessing Dr. Fishman of Fishman Chemical either owns or works for the company. They are in business of selling Chloroquine Phosphate and other fish meds. So, if it were me, I'd be taking any dosage info from them with a grain of salt.

I'm just sayin'

 

[holdyourlight]

I'm not saying he's wrong, but I just feel the need to point out the obvious: I'm guessing Dr. Fishman of Fishman Chemical either owns or works for the company. They are in business of selling Chloroquine Phosphate and other fish meds. So, if it were me, I'd be taking any dosage info from them with a grain of salt.

I'm just sayin'

Very true! but if they are giving people incorrect dosages that are going to kill their fish i think they would be out of business pretty quickly!

 

[alprazo]

I do not believe that they are selling 100% chloroquine and I noted this before ever hearing about their dosing schedule. I remember reading years ago about the LD50 (The dose where 50% of fish will die) was not that far from the 10mg/l or 40mg/gal dose that is recommended. The range between recommended dose and LD was narrower for quinine. I will see if I can find it again. I believe there is something "fishy" here.

Storage of chloroquine was studied because it is used in high quantities for malaria prevention. It is degraded by UV light. They are just wrong. Especially at the pH of seawater.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7948188

Next, the attorney for the animal pharmacy I use told me that cholorquine requires a script from a vet. Selling it without one could cause the pharmacist to lose his/her license. Now if you are not a pharmacist and just a retail business - if you get caught selling something that you shouldn't all they will do is make you stop and/or fine you. But again it makes me suspect about dealings with anyone who sells it that way. There is also one source that mislabels their bottles to avoid the issue and makes it look like they are selling a dose lower than requires script. Maybe I was given wrong info but until I hear different, it requires a script for any quantity over 250 mg.

Finally, Dosing sub-therapeutic levels of any anti-microbial will cause the rapid development of resistance. I totally disagree with the Pet store dosing recommendations listed above and pray it is not being done wholesale. The way these fish are maintained in closed systems before export and in the wholesale units - will cause a great medication to be completely worthless in no time.

Penicillin killed Staph aureus probably near 100% in the 30s when first used in patients. In the past two years the major labs stopped testing for susceptibilities to PCN because penicillin sensitive Staph aureus is so seldom seen. We have never treated mass numbers of people with sub-therapeutic levels either. Much of the advice given above is just bad or wrong.

If you are to use chloroquine, which in my opinion is a great med - please follow the recommended dosing guidelines of 10mg/l or 40mg/gal. Dose for at least 14 days and remove the chemical when the fish have finished being treated. Buy it from a reputable and ethical source and make sure it is the real stuff and has not been cut with filler. Anything else is bad medicine.

Rant over

 

[holdyourlight]

I do not believe that they are selling 100% chloroquine and I noted this before ever hearing about their dosing schedule. I remember reading years ago about the LD50 (The dose where 50% of fish will die) was not that far from the 10mg/l or 40mg/gal dose that is recommended. The range between recommended dose and LD was narrower for quinine. I will see if I can find it again. I believe there is something "fishy" here.

Storage of chloroquine was studied because it is used in high quantities for malaria prevention. It is degraded by UV light. They are just wrong. Especially at the pH of seawater.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7948188

Next, the attorney for the animal pharmacy I use told me that cholorquine requires a script from a vet. Selling it without one could cause the pharmacist to lose his/her license. Now if you are not a pharmacist and just a retail business - if you get caught selling something that you shouldn't all they will do is make you stop and/or fine you. But again it makes me suspect about dealings with anyone who sells it that way. There is also one source that mislabels their bottles to avoid the issue and makes it look like they are selling a dose lower than requires script. Maybe I was given wrong info but until I hear different, it requires a script for any quantity over 250 mg.

Finally, Dosing sub-therapeutic levels of any anti-microbial will cause the rapid development of resistance. I totally disagree with the Pet store dosing recommendations listed above and pray it is not being done wholesale. The way these fish are maintained in closed systems before export and in the wholesale units - will cause a great medication to be completely worthless in no time.

Penicillin killed Staph aureus probably near 100% in the 30s when first used in patients. In the past two years the major labs stopped testing for susceptibilities to PCN because penicillin sensitive Staph aureus is so seldom seen. We have never treated mass numbers of people with sub-therapeutic levels either. Much of the advice given above is just bad or wrong.

If you are to use chloroquine, which in my opinion is a great med - please follow the recommended dosing guidelines of 10mg/l or 40mg/gal. Dose for at least 14 days and remove the chemical when the fish have finished being treated. Buy it from a reputable and ethical source and make sure it is the real stuff and has not been cut with filler. Anything else is bad medicine.

Rant over

Great stuff Alprazo,
Makes sense
PM on the way......

 

[JoshuaG]

Next, the attorney for the animal pharmacy I use told me that cholorquine requires a script from a vet. Selling it without one could cause the pharmacist to lose his/her license. Now if you are not a pharmacist and just a retail business - if you get caught selling something that you shouldn't all they will do is make you stop and/or fine you. But again it makes me suspect about dealings with anyone who sells it that way. There is also one source that mislabels their bottles to avoid the issue and makes it look like they are selling a dose lower than requires script. Maybe I was given wrong info but until I hear different, it requires a script for any quantity over 250 mg.

Just as an FYI, a quote from my Geomans/Ichinotsubo book.

"Chloroquine Phosphate is available in bulk powder from various chemical supply houses and no special license or permit is required for it's purchase. Aralen tablets are also available from online pharmacies or via a prescription from your local doctor."

This is where I got mine, he gets it from Fishman Chemicals. It's listed as 99% pure.

http://www.thomaslabs.com/products/632-fish-quine-forte-powder-chloroquine-phosphate-400mg.aspx

 

[holdyourlight]

Just as an FYI, a quote from my Geomans/Ichinotsubo book.

"Chloroquine Phosphate is available in bulk powder from various chemical supply houses and no special license or permit is required for it's purchase. Aralen tablets are also available from online pharmacies or via a prescription from your local doctor."

This is where I got mine, he gets it from Fishman Chemicals. It's listed as 99% pure.

http://www.thomaslabs.com/products/632-fish-quine-forte-powder-chloroquine-phosphate-400mg.aspx

Interesting. So he gets it from Fishman and re-packages it??

The dosing is also very interesting. 40mg/g DAILY for 10 days. Not a one and done and the highest dosage rates i've ever seen

 

[alprazo]

I've read that too, but figured it was dated because chloroquine was once sold at the LFS for ich treatments. now, very few sources available. I questioned the need for a script and that is what I was told.

 

[JoshuaG]

Interesting. So he gets it from Fishman and re-packages it??

The dosing is also very interesting. 40mg/g DAILY for 10 days. Not a one and done and the highest dosage rates i've ever seen

Yes, he just repackages it probably because Fishman only sells it per kilo.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Very true! but if they are giving people incorrect dosages that are going to kill their fish i think they would be out of business pretty quickly!

The thing is, what is the lethal threshold for CP? And how far away is it from all these various recommended dosages? I'm sure somebody has experimented on enough fish to know, or at least have a rough idea. Maybe that person is Dr. Fishman. But I've never seen that info shared anywhere. It's certainly not common knowledge, like the lethal limits for fish in copper are.

I also question the logic behind Dr. Fishman's antibiotic analogy. Antibiotics are used to treat infections caused by bacteria. Most antibiotics used just slow down or stall bacterial growth, aiding one's natural immune system to do the rest. Which explains the need for multiple dosages.

CP is a antimalarial medication, which just so happens to also eradicate parasites in fish. From my research, it attacks the parasites directly (in all life cycles) and in theory, should work almost instantly. Thus, the need for only one dose. I think keeping a fish in CP for, say, longer than one week and/or doing multiple doses is just because we are so Crypto paranoid (justifiably so). It's akin to people going fallow for 3 or 4 months, when in theory, 9 weeks gives you a 99.7% probability of starving out the parasites.

 

[Chicago]

well months later and a completely devoid of fish display tank i started to re introduce some tangs.. i lost almost all my live stock. got some qt tanks going and left the display emptly. i did qt tank with copper and the little blue and purple tangs lived in copper treated qt tank for about 4 weeks.. all no signs of ick .. so then intorduced into the display.. now weeks later. i just notice the bad news .. one of the little blue hippos has ick. this is so frustrating... not scratching not breathing hard and still eating .. but what a bummer.. display has ick again.. all others are doing well .. trying to catch and hippos to put back into qt tank.. nuts..

 

[holdyourlight]

Yes, he just repackages it probably because Fishman only sells it per kilo.

Fish still doing well? What day are you on?

 

[JoshuaG]

Fish still doing well? What day are you on?

Yup, fish looking great, today is day 10!

 

[Chicago]

ok.. starting to look at this thread again as a solution.. in a large system.. 800 gallons.. what will this entail.. thanks

 

[b0bab0ey]

ok.. starting to look at this thread again as a solution.. in a large system.. 800 gallons.. what will this entail.. thanks

I noticed in your sig that you say your system is "reef sps dominated". The treatment being described here is NOT reef safe. No treatment that's 100% effective is. You'd have to QT all your fish and go fallow in the DT for 9+ week for this treatment (or any other proven method) to work.

 

[Chicago]

was sps dominated.. then tank crash lost corals.. then fish wipe out... now back to starting block after 30 years.. thanks for the info..

did the fallow for three months.. then QT tank... some how it sliped back in .. ick is back.. hippo tangs.. got it.. not sure how it got back in. but it did.. so we will see.. trying the garlic and other methods.. time will tell

 

[cabinetman123]

So whats up with all the testing??Somebody must have something else by now. This is the most promising ich thread Ive ever read. bump bump. Lets keep it going.

 

[rossco838]

I just got my chloroquine in the mail today I will be starting treatment in the next couple days in my 275 fowlr system. I will be combining this with praziquantel at the same time. No inverts in the tank just 2 puffers and 1 trigger currently

 

[cabinetman123]

I cant wait to hear how you make out. Thats the sitution Im in. I got a 300 gallon fowlr tank that is full of big tangs. I can keep them looking not to bad but I want this ich gone and setting up a qt for all my fish is out of the question. I need something effective that I can just treat my main tank with. i wonder where I can get this stuff in canada?

 

[rossco838]

I will update when I start the treatment. Cabinet man you have a pm