My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

[C_Aldrich]

Just got an ich outbreak

Just got an ich outbreak

I had to leave today (Wednesday) for Thanksgiving and just as I was departing for the airport noticed my purple tang and maroon clown had an outbreak of white spots. I did a 25% water change on Monday evening in my 120 g FO aquarium and must of stressed them out. When I return on Saturday, I plan to add chloroquine diphosphate (CP) to the system at 10 mg/gallon (based on the amount of chloroquine in CP) and will keep you posted. As I chemist, I can easily monitor the CP levels and will do this using a spectrophotometric method and by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) to ensure I maintain therapeutically effective concentrations. I read this thread since the beginning and I don't think anyone has yet measured CP levels throughout the course of treatment. In an active FO or FOWLR system bacteria can certainly degrade CP as happens in the environment with other anti-infectives, so it will be interesting to follow the CP concentration. From previous comments, it seems CP has been rather difficult to obtain. My research focuses on anti-infectives, so I can just pull it off the shelf (it's readily available from Sigma-Aldrich, but you have to be a research lab). I found several sites selling it on Ebay, but one cannot be sure of quality and purity. If it works, I'm sure I could purchase it through a Chinese chemical firm for a fraction of the cost (search for chloroquine here: http://www.chemexper.com/)

 

[Deinonych]

I had to leave today (Wednesday) for Thanksgiving and just as I was departing for the airport noticed my purple tang and maroon clown had an outbreak of white spots. I did a 25% water change on Monday evening in my 120 g FO aquarium and must of stressed them out. When I return on Saturday, I plan to add chloroquine diphosphate (CP) to the system at 10 mg/gallon (based on the amount of chloroquine in CP) and will keep you posted. As I chemist, I can easily monitor the CP levels and will do this using a spectrophotometric method and by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) to ensure I maintain therapeutically effective concentrations. I read this thread since the beginning and I don't think anyone has yet measured CP levels throughout the course of treatment. In an active FO or FOWLR system bacteria can certainly degrade CP as happens in the environment with other anti-infectives, so it will be interesting to follow the CP concentration. From previous comments, it seems CP has been rather difficult to obtain. My research focuses on anti-infectives, so I can just pull it off the shelf (it's readily available from Sigma-Aldrich, but you have to be a research lab). I found several sites selling it on Ebay, but one cannot be sure of quality and purity. If it works, I'm sure I could purchase it through a Chinese chemical firm for a fraction of the cost (search for chloroquine here: http://www.chemexper.com/)

Look forward to seeing the results! BTW, you'll want to dose 15mg/l (60mg/gal) for an active infection. 10mg/gal is way too low.

 

[Elliott]

I had to leave today (Wednesday) for Thanksgiving and just as I was departing for the airport noticed my purple tang and maroon clown had an outbreak of white spots. I did a 25% water change on Monday evening in my 120 g FO aquarium and must of stressed them out. When I return on Saturday, I plan to add chloroquine diphosphate (CP) to the system at 10 mg/gallon (based on the amount of chloroquine in CP) and will keep you posted. As I chemist, I can easily monitor the CP levels and will do this using a spectrophotometric method and by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) to ensure I maintain therapeutically effective concentrations. I read this thread since the beginning and I don't think anyone has yet measured CP levels throughout the course of treatment. In an active FO or FOWLR system bacteria can certainly degrade CP as happens in the environment with other anti-infectives, so it will be interesting to follow the CP concentration. From previous comments, it seems CP has been rather difficult to obtain. My research focuses on anti-infectives, so I can just pull it off the shelf (it's readily available from Sigma-Aldrich, but you have to be a research lab). I found several sites selling it on Ebay, but one cannot be sure of quality and purity. If it works, I'm sure I could purchase it through a Chinese chemical firm for a fraction of the cost (search for chloroquine here: http://www.chemexper.com/)

wow, would be valuable to know how the levels of CP decay over time, please post your results, many thanks!

 

[HumbleFish]

I had to leave today (Wednesday) for Thanksgiving and just as I was departing for the airport noticed my purple tang and maroon clown had an outbreak of white spots. I did a 25% water change on Monday evening in my 120 g FO aquarium and must of stressed them out. When I return on Saturday, I plan to add chloroquine diphosphate (CP) to the system at 10 mg/gallon (based on the amount of chloroquine in CP) and will keep you posted. As I chemist, I can easily monitor the CP levels and will do this using a spectrophotometric method and by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) to ensure I maintain therapeutically effective concentrations. I read this thread since the beginning and I don't think anyone has yet measured CP levels throughout the course of treatment. In an active FO or FOWLR system bacteria can certainly degrade CP as happens in the environment with other anti-infectives, so it will be interesting to follow the CP concentration. From previous comments, it seems CP has been rather difficult to obtain. My research focuses on anti-infectives, so I can just pull it off the shelf (it's readily available from Sigma-Aldrich, but you have to be a research lab). I found several sites selling it on Ebay, but one cannot be sure of quality and purity. If it works, I'm sure I could purchase it through a Chinese chemical firm for a fraction of the cost (search for chloroquine here: http://www.chemexper.com/)

Yes, very interested in your results! :thumbsup:

 

[jazzman7838]

Yes, thanks for the clarification. Matt did state they treat at 10mg/l for active infections when I spoke with him at MACNA. IME, 10mg/l isn't sufficient for active outbreaks in a small quarantine tank, though. I prefer 15mg/l (60mg/g) for active outbreaks.

Well I can tell you that CP is sufficient to eradicate Cryptocaryon if it is kept at 10mg/L for 21 days, in the experience of the Steinhart Aquarium (and many other public aquariums).

 

[jazzman7838]

I had to leave today (Wednesday) for Thanksgiving and just as I was departing for the airport noticed my purple tang and maroon clown had an outbreak of white spots. I did a 25% water change on Monday evening in my 120 g FO aquarium and must of stressed them out. When I return on Saturday, I plan to add chloroquine diphosphate (CP) to the system at 10 mg/gallon (based on the amount of chloroquine in CP) and will keep you posted. As I chemist, I can easily monitor the CP levels and will do this using a spectrophotometric method and by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) to ensure I maintain therapeutically effective concentrations. I read this thread since the beginning and I don't think anyone has yet measured CP levels throughout the course of treatment. In an active FO or FOWLR system bacteria can certainly degrade CP as happens in the environment with other anti-infectives, so it will be interesting to follow the CP concentration. From previous comments, it seems CP has been rather difficult to obtain. My research focuses on anti-infectives, so I can just pull it off the shelf (it's readily available from Sigma-Aldrich, but you have to be a research lab). I found several sites selling it on Ebay, but one cannot be sure of quality and purity. If it works, I'm sure I could purchase it through a Chinese chemical firm for a fraction of the cost (search for chloroquine here: http://www.chemexper.com/)

Looking forward to seeing that too. From what I understand it takes a very long time for that bacteria pop'n to build up to digest chloroquine so would only happen with repeated or prolonged exposure to the drug. It might be wise to bleach or otherwise disinfect a QT system between treatments of chloroquine to prevent this.

 

[Dr. X]

C_Aldrich, this will add important knowledge as we use this medication to treat fish.

We will need to carefully consider the implications of this information, however. One of the variables we need to consider is the purity of the chemical - will you be sourcing it from Sigma Aldrich?

A while back (posts 428-446), we discussed some of the biological effects of the drug in the context of studies performed in humans (pharmacokinetics including drug absorption, distribution, serum levels, clearance, and toxicity).

Alprazo found one study of CP use to treat velvet, none for ich.

Those threads point out some of the major unknowns regarding CP use to treat ich in marine fish. It's likely that many or all of these questions will never be answered, and it's probable that the physiologic differences between humans and fish are so significant that extrapolation from human studies to fish are not only meaningless but misleading. I would love some input from the Veterinarians in our group who might be able to answer this.

The empiric evidence of those who have used the drug is probably the most important information we have to date. It's disheartening to note how variable the results have been for different hobbyists who have used the same concentration of the drug.

Reasons for this can be:

1. The drug itself. The source has been implicated and purity questioned. This is so crucial that if it's not controlled for we are wasting our time. If some of us are putting baking soda into our tanks because we were sold white powder labeled CP, for example. Even if we are using real CP, is it old/expired? Are we inactivating it in out tanks by using light? Is the CP being inactivated by bacteria, as you suggest?

2. The dosage and concentration in the water. Your study will help with this.
However, it's important to consider
a) how careful we are in measuring the dose we are administering - many of us don't have scales with the resolution to measure grams,
b) volume of water - many of us guestimate and do not verify the volume of water in the tank

3. Are we all even treating ich? Who is verifying that the white spots on their fish are really ich? Actually there are mentions that some public aquaria are indeed performing gill scrapings and necropsy to verify the diagnosis, but some us may be seeing treatment failures because the fish have something other than ich.

4. What is the length of treatment needed to treat ich with close to 100 cure rate? BTW, I have not tried the shorter course I had suggested in prior posts.

I look forward to the results of your testing and to reading everyone's thoughts.

 

[jazzman7838]

3. Are we all even treating ich? Who is verifying that the white spots on their fish are really ich? Actually there are mentions that some public aquaria are indeed performing gill scrapings and necropsy to verify the diagnosis, but some us may be seeing treatment failures because the fish have something other than ich.

Skin scrapings would be the more likely source of diagnosis of a live fish. You can do a gill clipping on a live fish but for hopefully obvious reasons it is much more traumatic to them!

 

[Deinonych]

Well I can tell you that CP is sufficient to eradicate Cryptocaryon if it is kept at 10mg/L for 21 days, in the experience of the Steinhart Aquarium (and many other public aquariums).

I don't doubt the protocol that Steinhart uses, but my experience has been that 10mg/l is insufficient to eliminate active outbreaks of cryptocaryon. Conversely, I *have* been successful eliminating the parasite at 15mg/l. Not sure why the discrepancy exists, but that has been my experience.

 

[rog2961]

Looking forward to seeing that too. From what I understand it takes a very long time for that bacteria pop'n to build up to digest chloroquine so would only happen with repeated or prolonged exposure to the drug. It might be wise to bleach or otherwise disinfect a QT system between treatments of chloroquine to prevent this.

This is what I have observed as well. My primary indicator is algae. By watching algae growth I could kind of tell how much was in the system. By the end of the 4 week treatment, I could tell that the algae was coming back even though I was dosing back to what I thought was the same levels.

 

[HumbleFish]

This is what I have observed as well. My primary indicator is algae. By watching algae growth I could kind of tell how much was in the system. By the end of the 4 week treatment, I could tell that the algae was coming back even though I was dosing back to what I thought was the same levels.

In my QTs I can go months, do WCs, and still not see any algae growth after using CP (dosing at 40mg/gal). I do get this while film on the glass, in place of algae.

 

[Elliott]

In my QTs I can go months, do WCs, and still not see any algae growth after using CP (dosing at 40mg/gal). I do get this while film on the glass, in place of algae.

this has been my experience as well, CP levels seem to persist for some time, it's my guess it decays slowly

 

[rog2961]

In my QTs I can go months, do WCs, and still not see any algae growth after using CP (dosing at 40mg/gal). I do get this while film on the glass, in place of algae.

Perhaps its a difference of tanks? I tried this on my DT, which has strong leds, somewhat high nutrients. Compared to a qt with little/no light, low nutrients (in comparison to my DT). All i know is the algae is returning to my DT slowly, which I perceive as a good sign. The RTN/STN has stopped which leads me to believe its concentration in the water is greatly reduced.

 

[HumbleFish]

Perhaps its a difference of tanks? I tried this on my DT, which has strong leds, somewhat high nutrients. Compared to a qt with little/no light, low nutrients (in comparison to my DT). All i know is the algae is returning to my DT slowly, which I perceive as a good sign. The RTN/STN has stopped which leads me to believe its concentration in the water is greatly reduced.

I've only used CP in a bare bottom QT w/no lights. Well, except for one time in a permanent QT with u/g filter, crushed coral substrate... but still no lights. And even that tank never grew algae again (broke it down after 4 months of this).

Supposedly exposure to light breaks CP down. So, running your LEDs may be the reason why.

 

[rog2961]

I've only used CP in a bare bottom QT w/no lights. Well, except for one time in a permanent QT with u/g filter, crushed coral substrate... but still no lights. And even that tank never grew algae again (broke it down after 4 months of this).

Supposedly exposure to light breaks CP down. So, running your LEDs may be the reason why.

So to get rid of CP, turn on carbon, skimmer, and blast it with LED's.

 

[jazzman7838]

Light and skimmers do not affect CP, it's UV light specifically, and carbon and ozone, that will remove/destroy it.

 

[monkiboy]

Light and skimmers do not affect CP, it's UV light specifically, and carbon and ozone, that will remove/destroy it.

what is your experience with CP and/or testing background with it to be able to say so? i'm not as smart as the science-y folks on here but the papers i read suggest turning the skimmer off or allowing to overflow for oxygenation purposes but also interested in your statement about UV specific light degrading it and if at all UV wavelengths. thanks!

 

[Deinonych]

Light and skimmers do not affect CP, it's UV light specifically, and carbon and ozone, that will remove/destroy it.

+1

Polyfilter will also remove it. I use a combination of carbon and Polyfilter once treatment ends.

 

[Elliott]

Interesting observation:

So I run CP in my fish QT system ongoing, I leave the light off unless there are fish in the tank. The water has remained very clear however when I turn the light on I have noticed that after a few days the water gets cloudy. It's cloudiest at the end of the light period and clearest in the morning before the lights come on. It's a low wattage actinic light.

Maybe there is a reaction between light and CP or possibly some other light stimulated bacteria bloom?

 

[rog2961]

what is your experience with CP and/or testing background with it to be able to say so? i'm not as smart as the science-y folks on here but the papers i read suggest turning the skimmer off or allowing to overflow for oxygenation purposes but also interested in your statement about UV specific light degrading it and if at all UV wavelengths. thanks!

I was originally going to type up stuff about wavelengths and the such, but I read from a study somewhere that it only breaks up in the low wavelengths below 400nm, 325nm or so if I remember correctly. The lights that we run are typically very strong in the 420nm+ range. So light effectively do nothing.