My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

[holdyourlight]

I've posted a bunch on this thread and have been experimenting with CP for 2 years now. Unfortunately "experimenting" for me means that i have never been able to fully eradicate it. In the beginning it was the Fishman CP, which i blamed for the unsatisfactory results, and over the summer i switched to Alprazo's source, Luis. I had hoped the change in suppliers would give me the results i want but so far it's not been the case.

Some of you may remember my posts about the kole tang who would not eat during treatment. As has happened every time i've treated: ich spots are gone right around day 5 and do not return during treatment. I have never witnessed one spot of ich while CP is in the water. IME rock absorption is not enough to have any effect. I treated the DT for 20 something days @ 80mg/g and finally pulled it as i could not watch him starve any longer. Within 5 days his appetite was back 100% and so was the ich. This has happened plenty of times before. I figured my dose was to high so i went with the standard 40mg/g this time. I redosed and something happened that i have never witnessed before, ich spots were gone in 24 hours. Not sure why, but i have a couple theories. This time i planned to leave it in for longer (at least 30 days) and hoped that the lower dose would not cause the hunger strike in the kole tang. Well hoping was not enough and sure enough he stopped eating. This time though i found something that he would eat during CP and that was frozen mysis. This only lasted about a week and then he refused to eat anything again. I made is past the 30 day point this time before i pulled the CP. Thought i was in the clear as i went the longest i have ever went after pulling it, but alas it took 10 days for the fish to start itching again. No new fish were added at any point during this last experiment.

My experience seems to tell me that CP does not work on the cysts. I guess my next experiment will have to be for 10 weeks or so? This is going to be a problem for the Kole Tang. I think what i will do is maybe ramp up the dosage slowly this time to see if that makes any difference. I'm also going to try the kitchen sink foodwise. Maybe some live foods, live brine, blackworms, who knows. If he still does not eat i'll have to invest in a fish trap and pull him and most likely treat him separately with tank transfer and put him back in after the 10 week CP treatment.
Thoughts, comments, advice?
Thanks

 

[Alberta-newb]

Thank you for all of the valuable input on this thread! I can't really comment on what is happening with your tang, only share the results of my "experimentation" so far.

I have had good success using CP in my QT, having treated a pyramid butterfly that had velvet. Within 24 hrs the symptoms cleared and the fish went on to eventually go into my display after 7 weeks. I've also used it in the QT prophylactally with several other fish without issue (including loss of appetite).

I was treating a hippo tang with ich in the QT but the fish was not doing well in the small QT ( one half of a divided 55 gal). I decided to move it to a spare 90 gal I have running with live rock and crushed coral substrate. Treating at 80mg/gal, symptoms improved but never completely. The tank also developed algae after a week or two so I felt the CP had degraded. I tried again with the same results. I am not sure if it was the quality of CP (ebay seller), or the interaction with the drug and the rock/substrate. In any case I had to go back to cupramine with the tang. Even so, I'm not 100% sure it's ich free and it won't be going into my main display anytime soon.

I have recently gotten a prescription from a veterinarian who is genuinely interested in the use of CP and have 25g on order through a pharmacy. I'm hoping a "medical grade" will provide more consistent results although I will not be trying it in a tank with rock or substrate and stick to the sterile QT that has worked well for me so far.

 

[Elliott]

I have been using Fishman CP for several years with good results, always treat at a maximum of 40mg/g as I find too much appetite suppression above this concentration, have not had algae regrowth unless I do practically 100% water change so I believe CP concentrations degrade slowly.

I also believe the dose is still effective at much lower concentrations than 40mg/g as I have seen Ich disappear even after adding fish to the system that previously was dosed 2 months previously at 40mg/g

However, I currently have an Achilles in QT that had Ich on arrival, went away at a dose of 40mg/g, continued treatment for 3 months while adding back CP adjusting for water changes, then ran carbon and he was covered in Ich again 12 days later with poor appetite. So I re dosed the tank with CP at 40mg/g, Ich is disappearing and he is eating normal. So, I'm not sure what is going on here. Either CP is not effective at eradicating Ich completely, I didn't treat long enough or maybe it's just impossible to fully clear an Achilles of Ich…?

 

[Deinonych]

Interesting anecdotes. I've not experienced any loss of appetite in any of my fish, and CP does seem to eliminate cryptocaryon at 60mg/gal and higher. I haven't treated any active infections with 40mg/gal (only prophylactically in QT), so I can't comment on its effectiveness at lower concentrations. I can't imagine there are CP-resistant strains out there, given the limited use of the medication.

 

[Dr. X]

Interesting anecdotes. I've not experienced any loss of appetite in any of my fish, and CP does seem to eliminate cryptocaryon at 60mg/gal and higher. I haven't treated any active infections with 40mg/gal (only prophylactically in QT), so I can't comment on its effectiveness at lower concentrations. I can't imagine there are CP-resistant strains out there, given the limited use of the medication.

Chris, where do you source your CP again?

 

[HumbleFish]

Interesting anecdotes. I've not experienced any loss of appetite in any of my fish, and CP does seem to eliminate cryptocaryon at 60mg/gal and higher. I haven't treated any active infections with 40mg/gal (only prophylactically in QT), so I can't comment on its effectiveness at lower concentrations. I can't imagine there are CP-resistant strains out there, given the limited use of the medication.

+1 I have used CP to eradicate Ich in many fish with active infections at both 40 & 60 mg/gal. I also have not once seen any signs of Ich/Velvet in fish I prophylactically treat with CP at 40 mg/gal. I'm talking probably at least 100 fish now (for awhile, I was QT'ing fish for friends as well). There is no way I could QT 100 fish and never see Ich/Velvet if this med was ineffective.

 

[Deinonych]

Chris, where do you source your CP again?

I got my current batch from Alfa Aesar, but at least one other poster here was unable to order any from them. They were told that Alfa does not sell directly to end customers. Maybe I got lucky - I'll find out when my supply runs out, I suppose.

If I can't get it from them next time, I'll ask my vet for a script. There's a local compounding pharmacy that can order it.

 

[Dr. X]

Thanks. I just placed an online order from Alpha Aesar. Will see if there are issues. I've used Thomas Labs, and had disastrous results (that, in their defence, may have been due to how I used the drug). Regardless, it's impossible to rule out "treatment failures" if we are all using different drugs, especially if some are suspect. I'll let you know hot it goes.

 

[Deinonych]

Regardless, it's impossible to rule out "treatment failures" if we are all using different drugs, especially if some are suspect. I'll let you know hot it goes.

I agree with this based on personal experience. I was treating an active outbreak of crypt with CP I bought on eBay. Supposedly it came from Fishman Chemical. I was still seeing spots a week into treatment at 60mg/gal. Switched over to the supply from Alfa through multiple water changes and the spots went away after a few days, never to return.

It's really unfortunate that there is not a mainstream supplier that we can all count on. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, at MACNA this year I asked Seachem if they would ever be bringing a CP product to market, and their CEO told me it was unlikely.

 

[HumbleFish]

It's really unfortunate that there is not a mainstream supplier that we can all count on. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, at MACNA this year I asked Seachem if they would ever be bringing a CP product to market, and their CEO told me it was unlikely.

Agreed. Individuals & companies selling CP that is something other than 99% pure are probably to blame for a lot of these "failures". The companies doing it are unscrupulous; but a lot of the individuals (i.e. ebay seller) are probably doing it unknowingly. Folks buying CP need to be very careful who they get theirs from. CP is a one & done medication. Anyone saying to dose it daily, do a WC, re-dose, etc. is peddling something other than 99% pure CP.

 

[rog2961]

How long are people dosing for? When I did my DT I did 4 weeks. Im dosing my QT now and was wondering how long I should. The full blown ich that both tangs had have cleared up. The sail is eating happily, its the hippo I am concerned about, It stopped eating about 2 days into treatment. I am about a week into the treatment and I am deciding weather to redose, or let it run without CP for a couple days so that Hippo can catch up.


I am measuring with a scale, in a bare 29g QT. Which would equate to about 1.2g.

 

[Deinonych]

I do 4 weeks - 40mg/gal for preventative quarantine, 60mg/gal if the fish is showing spots. So far, I have not seen any appetite suppression from CP at either dosage (knock on wood). I plan to get a Kole Tang in the next couple of months, so that will be the real test I guess. Seems like tangs are hit or miss with CP in terms of appetite suppression.

You might consider moving the hippo to another tank and trying a different treatment like copper or tank transfer. Quinine sulfate is another possible treatment option. National Fish Pharmaceutical sells it. If you remove the CP from the current tank, you'll have to start all over.

When you say, "redose," are you adding CP on a daily basis? CP is a "one and done" treatment. You should not be dosing more than once, unless you do water changes (and then, only the amount needed to keep the dosage constant with the new water).

 

[Dr. X]

No go on the Alfa Aesar. They e-mailed me that they would not honor my order because they don't sell to individuals. Now let's hope they refund my credit card! It stinks. Now I have to look for another source. Sigma Aldrich is much clearer about its policies. I have some Fish Quine Forte from Thomas labs, but it's one of the "repeat in 24 hrs" powders. Says it's 99% pure chloroquine phosphate, but who knows...

 

[Alberta-newb]

Just picked up mine today from the pharmacy. Unfortunately in Canada it's only available by prescription so that was the first obstacle.

Local vet said "I need to see the patient" , I said "sure come over to my house cause I'm not bringing my tank here!". Vet wouldn't do a thing for me (its not for cows ), but I found an excellent veterinarian in the city that was genuinely interested in learning new treatments. She was happy to provide a script and has been directed to review this thread.

My CP is from PCCA in Houston. Very pricy at over $90 CDN for 25 grams. Perhaps my American friends can purchase direct. Their website is www.pccarx.com

Francis

 

[Deinonych]

No go on the Alfa Aesar. They e-mailed me that they would not honor my order because they don't sell to individuals. Now let's hope they refund my credit card! It stinks. Now I have to look for another source. Sigma Aldrich is much clearer about its policies. I have some Fish Quine Forte from Thomas labs, but it's one of the "repeat in 24 hrs" powders. Says it's 99% pure chloroquine phosphate, but who knows...

Bummer. My guess is they will do the same to me when it's time to re-order.

Like Alberta-newb, I have been able to get a script written by my vet. There's a local compounding pharmacy that will order it as long as I have a script. If you have a good relationship with your vet, you might try that route (we have three cats as well, so we are on a first-name basis ).

 

[Dr. X]

I'm a medical doctor and can write a script. What does your vet write for? Aralen tablets? I would prefer to get the lab-grade powder in order to avoid the fillers, dosing re-calculations, and crushing of the tablet forms...

 

[Alberta-newb]

The product I purchased was chloroquine phosphate in powder form. (comes in 25g bottles) and is labelled "For Prescription Compounding / Rx Only"

FYI, it also states on bottle: " Hygroscopic" "Protect From Light"

 

[MitchSutherland]

On ebay there is a guy selling 99% pure with no binders or fillers. I have used on a blue hippo and he looks great now. He was scratching all over and constantly had white spots and was always hiding and looking dreadful. Now he is eating coming out considerably alot more and looks great. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chloroquine...myloodinium-marine-velvet-brook-/230914391542 I am not the dude selling it. I would half does on powder tangs or 1/4 dose they seem pretty sensitive to it.

 

[monkiboy]

On ebay there is a guy selling 99% pure with no binders or fillers. I have used on a blue hippo and he looks great now. He was scratching all over and constantly had white spots and was always hiding and looking dreadful. Now he is eating coming out considerably alot more and looks great. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chloroquine...myloodinium-marine-velvet-brook-/230914391542 I am not the dude selling it. I would half does on powder tangs or 1/4 dose they seem pretty sensitive to it.

that's the guy that we have confirmed is getting his stuff from fishman chemical in bulk since they only sell by the kilo which has the most inconsistent results and which upon sale by fishman is provided varying dosing schedules.

i am glad to hear you are having luck with your solution and treatment.

 

[MitchSutherland]

so what do i need to know about the stuff that i am using? i had a powder blue and powder brown both die from it. But i figured it was because i did way to strong of a does.