My Journey with C./P. multifasciata

[Ambition]

Went on the Diver's Den tour yesterday and had the chance to meet Kevin (It was great to meet you if you're reading, can't wait to be able to go on another tour). While on the tour Kevin greeted me before I registered it was him since this was my first time seeing him in person. The tour as a whole was great, and the conversations I had with Kevin were awesome. Being that he has helped so much in the efforts documented in this thread, we talked about Paracentropyge complex angels in general as far as care and what we have both noticed between him acclimating them and my experience after receiving them. First thing was how much work it really takes in getting the fish used to captivity, eating, and in great condition. He did comment that Paracentropyge are some of the toughest angels to keep successfully since he can have a pair (like what he got for me or the previous Venusta pair sold on DD recently) in his office tank doing well after 3-4 months and have them die in 24 hours when moving them to QT prior to sale. As we were talking, I noticed the pair of Venusta pictured above would ride the MP40 periodically and mentioned to him that the male multibar I have really likes to swim in front of my MP10s. He and I think that flow might have a positive impact on keeping these fish, as well as with other delicate species (he mentioned Ventralis anthias being a prime example since they sit on the bottom in the QT system and swim more when the flow increases). Having planned on my arrival, Kevin had 4 Marshal Island multibar angelfish ordered. Two were paired up (one was eating quite well), and two individuals. Given an offer I couldn't refuse, I ended up leaving with one of the angels.

This one will be more challenging than the others since they haven't gone through the entire QT process and will need some work to get it eating like the ones I've gotten before. So here goes one last shot until next summer at the earliest. The fish ate food from the bottom of the tank yesterday when Kevin fed it (and ate quite well Friday). Today with the 5 feedings I did, I'm not sure if it ate much if anything. It's very cryptic in my presence, mostly swimming side ways and upside down in the large PVC in QT.

Took home the one on the left:

 

[Dmorty217]

That's awesome, I hope to get to do that tour in the next yr. now to figure out a excuse to go to Wisconsin...

 

[Ambition]

There were people on the tour yesterday from as far away as Colorado and Florida, which was rather surprising. IIRC, there were 3-4 guys from Grand Rapids, MI as well. I should have asked what they all used as an excuse to go to WI. :lol:

 

[Dmorty217]

There were people on the tour yesterday from as far away as Colorado and Florida, which was rather surprising. IIRC, there were 3-4 guys from Grand Rapids, MI as well. I should have asked what they all used as an excuse to go to WI. :lol:

Wow, that's crazy but if any tour is going to bring them in it's that one. When I say excuse I really mean is either A , good enough to get my wife and 10 month old daughter to come along... Or B, one good enough for my wife to tell me that she loves me and to be careful! I will have to get back with you on that one

 

[caribfan]

Glad to hear you got another multi, hope this one gets established well. I completely agree regarding proper flow, I think it's more important than we realize.

There is definitely something "mystical" about the paracentropyge group, the three venustus I have in quarantine right now have been relatively easy, especially when compared to the first three which all perished.

 

[caribfan]

Meant to ask, notice any special butterflies during the tour?

 

[Ambition]

I'm very glad that your trio of Venusta are doing well for you this time around.

Nothing too special in the way of butterflies. The burgessi and tinkeri were stunning in person (the tinkeri was huge, or at least looked that way), and a few copperbands and marginalis.

For any anthias folks following this, there were three groups of Ventralis (two trios and a group of four). They are very stunning in person, especially the group in Kevin's NPS tank.

 

[caribfan]

I love ventralis, plan to have a group in my 240 , I'm hoping between 5-9, depending on price.

I wish I could point to something I did on the Venustus, but there is little if anything different in the treatment of these fish I have now versus the first three .

I have been doing lots of water changes, 2 or more a week. Maybe that was the key.

 

[Ambition]

I did put the new multibar in QT, but if I don't get a feeding response by Saturday I'm thinking of catching her and putting her in the display. Water is ready for a couple water changes between now and then to keep things pristine (the cyano doesn't make it look that way though).

Should have posted this with the post above, but forgot to. The male and two females are towards the top, and another female is on the bottom right.

 

[Dmorty217]

Kyle, I was reading that when you were talking with Kevin that you two were discussing that flow has a positive effect on multibarrs, is that correct? I love these angels and am thinking of getting one or two and putting them thru QT with all my current fish and treating everyone together. I will have my 210g and 75g plumbed together for my treatment tanks while my DT sits fallow while treating with CP and 2 rounds of PP again just for good measure. Do you ever treat proactively? I noticed you said you may move fish from QT to DT on Saturday if the fish still isn't eating?

 

[Ambition]

I think it has a positive effect on Paracentropyge in general. Upon the male being moved from the QT with little flow to the DT with two MP10s and the return, it was interesting to see how it would swim in front of the flow from the pumps. Does it ride the flow like many tangs, especially species similar to A. achilles, no. However, the fish seemed much happier with more flow and the space to swim. The pair of venusta that Kevin currently has going in the middle section of his 180, would ride the flow from an MP40 on occasion. I did make the comment that these fish might benefit from quality flow more than one may think, and he did agree that is is very possible- and made a connection to Ventralis seeming to sink to the bottom of an aquarium with inadequate flow, but swimming with higher flow. As of now, with no experimentation or hard evidence, I would say more flow or oxygenation is beneficial. I might add an extra pump or two to the QT after a WC tomorrow and see how the new angel reacts (I'll be sure to share what happens).

I haven't proactively treated fish yet, but I have been wanting to since starting in the hobby. This is mainly due to a busy life and not wanting to have the medication get to a toxic level. While this might actually be something that I shouldn't worry about, I just didn't want to run that risk (that and previous copper experiences where no tests ever registered copper readings despite following procedures). I have tried using CP with the first pair I believe, but treatment came too late with what the fish had come down with.

And you are correct, I may end up moving the new angel into the DT if it is still not eating. Part of me wanted to introduce it straight to the DT, but I thought I would try QT first. I figure the DT will have more opportunities for grazing and buy me more time to try and get it to eat.

 

[Dmorty217]

Thanks for the info and clarification. I know how you feel with wanting to put the fish into the more established DT for grazing purposes and overall less stress IMO. I hate feeling like that's my best option especially when I haven't at least treated with PP. I was thinking about possibly doing TTM with them or any other fish for that matter after all of my current fish are treated and well (at least any new arrival after) although I do feel like the fish probably wouldn't eat while going thru TT from the stand point of there is nothing to pick at and the tank only being a few days old at most then starting over again with the next TT. I guess this is part of the reason these fish are so intriguing, even though I would consider them delicate even once established

 

[Rea17]

Thanks for the info and clarification. I know how you feel with wanting to put the fish into the more established DT for grazing purposes and overall less stress IMO. I hate feeling like that's my best option especially when I haven't at least treated with PP. I was thinking about possibly doing TTM with them or any other fish for that matter after all of my current fish are treated and well (at least any new arrival after) although I do feel like the fish probably wouldn't eat while going thru TT from the stand point of there is nothing to pick at and the tank only being a few days old at most then starting over again with the next TT. I guess this is part of the reason these fish are so intriguing, even though I would consider them delicate even once established

There is no reason to bypass a proper quarantine protocol for this fish, if anything it's more important. As previously stated, rock really isn't going to help unless it's established with more than just bacteria (pods, algae, etc). Flow seems like a no brainer, every single fish I've ever quarantined has perked up after I turn on the qt powerhead (I leave it off until the second day usually). Not achilles tang flow, of course, but the extra water movement aids in gas exchange and is stimulating for the fish.

Ambition, why would you put your current healthy male at risk by introducing a female that hasn't gone through thorough quarantine?

 

[Ambition]

I just finished the WC where I ended up spilling about a gallon of the new water on the stand around the tank (20g long QT on a stand for a 120). I added a small powerhead (I think maybe 300gph) prior to refilling the tank and turned it on once I finished adding water. Guess who the first fish out of hiding was, and is swimming in the flow. She perked up in less than 30 seconds from the powerhead being turned on after a "stressful" experience for most fish. We shall see if she decides to eat anything when I feed in about a half hour.

Ami, I don't really want to bypass QT, but it is something I am considering though thinking of not doing more and more. Before I move the fish, if I do, the pros and cons will be weighed very thoroughly.

I'm not exactly sure how "fat" a healthy multibar is supposed to be compared to a venusta, but the venusta that Kevin has right now have me thinking my angel is skinny... Look at the video, and you'll see what I mean.


Best shot of my male showing thickness:

 

[Rea17]

I know how it would be tempting to skip it, hopefully the extra flow in her qt gets you a feeding response.

Have you gotten the male to accept any "grazing" type food items like nori or clam on a half shell? How many times a day are you able to feed him at this point?

 

[Ambition]

I know how it would be tempting to skip it, hopefully the extra flow in her qt gets you a feeding response.

Have you gotten the male to accept any "grazing" type food items like nori or clam on a half shell? How many times a day are you able to feed him at this point?

He barely grazes on the rock, and completely ignores anything like nori (only haven't tried the purple/red type) and also ignores clams. He takes any mysis, brine, some flakes (his favorite is Formula 2), Ocean Nutrition Angel formula fed like typical frozen foods, pellets on occasion, and LRF only after the initial thaw (no thawing enough for a day with him). I've kept up with 4x per day 80% of the time since having him, with some days only getting him one or two (never more than a day like this however). Since getting back from WI Saturday night I have taken advantage of vacation days and fed him 6x per day.

The new one is looking for food on the rock and PVC in QT, but not registering the actual food in front of its face as food. Good news is much more "hunting" than has happened since introduction.

 

[pktech]

I had a pair that didn't eat for 7-10 days (or at least I never saw them eat initially) My friend suggested that a "non-aggressive" tankmate could trigger some sort of feeding response (competition for food) Within an hour, the little wrasse came out of the rocks & the multibars started eating everything I was trying to get them to eat for prior week. It worked for me!

I feel the wrasse did my heavy work. I also took Albanos advice & bought about 4-5 bottles of tigger pods& added them as well. I'd be curious if it would work for you as well.

 

[Ambition]

I have found that dither fish do help shy species, like multibar angelfish, come out of hiding and explore more. There is already a red tail flasher wrasse in the QT with the angel since I got it from DD after the tour with the angel (he perked up from extra flow, too).

This evening after dinner I thought I would try mushing up some Angel Formula food into the rock the angel likes to explore to see if it might start picking at it... Well, hard to mush it up on the rock while the rock is in the water and all, and I didn't want to take it out at this point. Then I got an idea from back when I was reading up on Orange Spot Filefish care and came across Matt's article on breeding success. Anyways, he mentioned that he typically used a gel food mix to stuff and mush up on acro skeletons to get the files eating and would slowly work on getting them to eat from the water column. I ended up having a couple SPS skeletons laying next to the QT, and I tried "stuffing" one of them with the angel formula.

Good news is, the angel can't help but check out the new decor and does pause when looking at the parts with food on it. Sadly, I haven't seen any attempts to try it yet. I'm hopeful though, I might see if I can find some smaller rock pieces to try this with as well.

 

[caribfan]

Have you mentioned the lighting schedule or temp you are keeping these guys at?

My Venustus were kept in the dark for some time in my basement and I don't run a heater, so the only additional temp above ambient comes from the mag 5 running the tank.

 

[Ambition]

The QT tank is kept at 76 (lower temp to slow metabolism while getting fish to eat) and isn't lit, just sunlight from the north-facing window.

DT is being kept at 79-80 and is lit with a 6-bulb ATI T5 fixture. Currently, with light acclimating the male again, I'm running only two bulbs right now. Should be at full power by the middle of next week.