My Male Crosshatch Trigger Died!
- Thread starter Johnsteph10
- Start date
Spracklcat
Disaster Expert
MB,
Did you do a full chem panel too? That might be useful.
Also, don't underestimate the differences in hematology between species. Even between felids and canids there are significant differences such taht you can easily put a slide on the scope and tell what animal it came from. Fish are even more different. Usually the most significant differences are in leukocyte morphology: if you haven't seen a lot of normals there's no way you will be able to distinguish pathology except for general percentages of cell types. Even then it isn't easy. For example, if you had a cat with a 65% lymphocyte count you wouldn't think twice about it, whereas a number like that in an equine or porcine species would be an immediate red flag.
Good for you, Justin?
Did you do a full chem panel too? That might be useful.
Also, don't underestimate the differences in hematology between species. Even between felids and canids there are significant differences such taht you can easily put a slide on the scope and tell what animal it came from. Fish are even more different. Usually the most significant differences are in leukocyte morphology: if you haven't seen a lot of normals there's no way you will be able to distinguish pathology except for general percentages of cell types. Even then it isn't easy. For example, if you had a cat with a 65% lymphocyte count you wouldn't think twice about it, whereas a number like that in an equine or porcine species would be an immediate red flag.
Good for you, Justin?
Anthony Calfo
New member
above all... please consider the very suitability (or not ) of such species for private aquariums. There are reasons why you do not see (rarely if ever) 10, 15 and 30 year old XL puffers, triggers and other large species predators in captivity but much more often do see the same species (and smaller ones) in public aquaria of such ages (Shed 60+ year old Tarpon, Nancy Aq. France 30+ yr Amphiprions, 20+ year Angels, etc).
Yet this is not merely about size (ala Tang police fodder
)... but rather, suitability(!)
A Gymnothorax species eel that gets, say... 1 meter long may well be found year after year in the exact same place on a reef and frankly do fine curled up in a cave in an aquarium that is not much bigger than it is long... and live a full lifespan (over 20 years) captive.
But a 1/2 meter long Naso tang or... in this case, a .3 meter long trigger that is found in open water near huge drop-offs and accustomed to swimming miles and miles is not as "suitable" for captivity as that eel by any reasonable standard.
You will find (on a scale of magnitude) far more 'giant' eels (keeping with the big fish example) of some considerable age in small (~ few hundred gallon) aquaria than you will ever find pelagic triggers or tangs.
There is legitimacy to the arguments of 'aquarium suitability' that many folks make on species such as X. mento here.
And you do not need to buy a book on the subject (if it even exist(ed)) to know what species are right for you/aquaria. There are plenty of free databases and info such as fishbase.org where you can exhaust the links to feeding, diet, reproduction, distribution, location on the reef (assuming it is even reef associated), etc to make intelligent inferences on best use of the living resource. That is... presuming you/we are conscientious and empathetic reef keepers that take such things into consideration rather than lay some claim to one's "God-given right" (or the atheistic prerogative otherwise) to use the animals of the earth with abandon.
kindly, Anthony
Yet this is not merely about size (ala Tang police fodder
)... but rather, suitability(!)A Gymnothorax species eel that gets, say... 1 meter long may well be found year after year in the exact same place on a reef and frankly do fine curled up in a cave in an aquarium that is not much bigger than it is long... and live a full lifespan (over 20 years) captive.
But a 1/2 meter long Naso tang or... in this case, a .3 meter long trigger that is found in open water near huge drop-offs and accustomed to swimming miles and miles is not as "suitable" for captivity as that eel by any reasonable standard.
You will find (on a scale of magnitude) far more 'giant' eels (keeping with the big fish example) of some considerable age in small (~ few hundred gallon) aquaria than you will ever find pelagic triggers or tangs.
There is legitimacy to the arguments of 'aquarium suitability' that many folks make on species such as X. mento here.
And you do not need to buy a book on the subject (if it even exist(ed)) to know what species are right for you/aquaria. There are plenty of free databases and info such as fishbase.org where you can exhaust the links to feeding, diet, reproduction, distribution, location on the reef (assuming it is even reef associated), etc to make intelligent inferences on best use of the living resource. That is... presuming you/we are conscientious and empathetic reef keepers that take such things into consideration rather than lay some claim to one's "God-given right" (or the atheistic prerogative otherwise) to use the animals of the earth with abandon.
kindly, Anthony
Johnsteph10
New member
Ok.
I'm mad as Hell.
One of the tests came back positive for a lethal level of CYANIDE. No parasites, no infections.
Another persion just contacted me who also got his fish from the same person just had his male die as well - and it sounded almost exactly the same way.
Warren - I need the name and number and any info you have on the diver. He's gonna feel my wrath.
I'm mad as Hell.
One of the tests came back positive for a lethal level of CYANIDE. No parasites, no infections.
Another persion just contacted me who also got his fish from the same person just had his male die as well - and it sounded almost exactly the same way.
Warren - I need the name and number and any info you have on the diver. He's gonna feel my wrath.
John,
You might want to research the utility of cyanide testing in fish weeks after capture. Cyanide testing has never been considered for use stateside, as supposedly the testing is very inaccurate after more than a couple of days post capture. Based on my knowledge of such testing, those results could be suspect. Something most definately worth looking into. Might worth finding out as much as possible about the particular test run and go into the Chem forum and run it all past Randy.
You might want to research the utility of cyanide testing in fish weeks after capture. Cyanide testing has never been considered for use stateside, as supposedly the testing is very inaccurate after more than a couple of days post capture. Based on my knowledge of such testing, those results could be suspect. Something most definately worth looking into. Might worth finding out as much as possible about the particular test run and go into the Chem forum and run it all past Randy.
Justjoe
New member
When I was at NYA, there was some research done on cyanide detection in marine fishes. All tests proved inconclusive, with too many positive results where no cyanide was used. The chemistry make up of salt water really makes it tough to distinguish whether cyanide is present or not.
I don't know the chemical aspects of it, but from what I remember of it, I wouldn't view it as an absolute that cyanide was used.
Joe
I don't know the chemical aspects of it, but from what I remember of it, I wouldn't view it as an absolute that cyanide was used.
Joe
pecan2phat
Active member
John,
I don't think that the collector would use cyanide to collect these type of open water fish. Just my opinion of course. Also stateside using cyanide especially in Hawaii would risk his entire business. I believe he has to also log in all his collections also.
I'll PM you the info though.
I don't think that the collector would use cyanide to collect these type of open water fish. Just my opinion of course. Also stateside using cyanide especially in Hawaii would risk his entire business. I believe he has to also log in all his collections also.
I'll PM you the info though.
alikatoes
Premium Member
John,
I am that collector that you wish to divert your wrath.
First of all I am sorry for your loss. I too keep CH and know how personal these specimens can get. Next I need you to know that this specimen nor any of my specimens are collected with any chemicals whatsoever. Like pecan said, "using cyanide especially in Hawaii would risk his entire business". I am 22 years old and I have a good thing going. I own my own boat that I love as much as you loved your CH. If I ever got caught with cyanide on my boat it would be confiscated, as would my diving gear, fish system, and state permits to capture fish. I understand you are an educated man but I must inform you that I am no fool. I would not risk $20000 worth of my capital assets to make $120 on a fish! I love diving and I am trying to build a reputaion for honest collections even when I have my own regards battles with the morality of collecting (with nets). I have studied Reef ecology and participate in SCUBA reef surveys around the state when I get the offer from my University. I would not do something so immoral or illegal and jeopardize my lifestyle.
Warrens fish was captured in november if I remember correctly. The other person that contacted you got his fish about a month ago. Is it strange that 2 fish collected at 2 different times died in 2 separate systems? Not when you consider the numbers of fish that are captured.
Rather than making claims that your tests have answered all your questions, posy some pictures and we can try and figure it out with combined experience of everyone reading this thread and myself.
I am that collector that you wish to divert your wrath.
First of all I am sorry for your loss. I too keep CH and know how personal these specimens can get. Next I need you to know that this specimen nor any of my specimens are collected with any chemicals whatsoever. Like pecan said, "using cyanide especially in Hawaii would risk his entire business". I am 22 years old and I have a good thing going. I own my own boat that I love as much as you loved your CH. If I ever got caught with cyanide on my boat it would be confiscated, as would my diving gear, fish system, and state permits to capture fish. I understand you are an educated man but I must inform you that I am no fool. I would not risk $20000 worth of my capital assets to make $120 on a fish! I love diving and I am trying to build a reputaion for honest collections even when I have my own regards battles with the morality of collecting (with nets). I have studied Reef ecology and participate in SCUBA reef surveys around the state when I get the offer from my University. I would not do something so immoral or illegal and jeopardize my lifestyle.
Warrens fish was captured in november if I remember correctly. The other person that contacted you got his fish about a month ago. Is it strange that 2 fish collected at 2 different times died in 2 separate systems? Not when you consider the numbers of fish that are captured.
Rather than making claims that your tests have answered all your questions, posy some pictures and we can try and figure it out with combined experience of everyone reading this thread and myself.
Wow, this is a heated thread.
Please everyone take a deep breath and drop your weapons.
I must back up Alikatoes on this one. I am his dive partner. We have never even considered cyanide and if you look at his website you will see he is in staunch oposition on using poisons to catch fish. Besides I would beat his @#$% if I even heard of him talking about using toxins.
can we please get that hot chick with the big words to interject some knowledge again.
Please everyone take a deep breath and drop your weapons.
I must back up Alikatoes on this one. I am his dive partner. We have never even considered cyanide and if you look at his website you will see he is in staunch oposition on using poisons to catch fish. Besides I would beat his @#$% if I even heard of him talking about using toxins.
can we please get that hot chick with the big words to interject some knowledge again.
cb747
Active member
John i dont claim to know anything scirntific but having dealt with Alex im sure your way off base. He is an honest and upfront guy from my dealings with him. I cant see him playing with fire and jeapordizing his livelihood by doing something illegal and immoral. Fish do die and its always easier to blame someone else especially on a high dollar fish. I think you owe Alex an appology IMO.
Chris
Chris
Justjoe
New member
I guess you haven't seen some of our other threads
I have two male cross hatch triggers from Alika and they were both eating the next day, and eating pellet foods 3 days later. I've also received other fish from him and they have done equally well, and I have another order in with him for other fish as well.
The fish were well packed and I look forward to the next shipment.
Joe
Johnsteph10
New member
It is nice to see all of the support I am getting from my own club. 
Like I said, no parasites at all. Multiple tissue samples analyzed by myself and others including bacterial analysis, stomach and intestinal content, gill sample, and so on.
Nice to see your dive partner pop up to support you out of the blue.
This is not about the money - this is about an intelligent, beautiful creature. The female is doing wonderfully and I am thankful for that.
The male died with a full belly, was almost 1.5 inches fat, and until the last few hours had beautiful colors. I have not lost another fish. It was quaranteed by Warren for a while even before I got it and then I QTed for 2 weeks.
I'll have the official test results by NYC poison control by Wednesday. You cannot argue with that.
If I'm wrong, then I will apologize. If not...
Like I said, no parasites at all. Multiple tissue samples analyzed by myself and others including bacterial analysis, stomach and intestinal content, gill sample, and so on.
Nice to see your dive partner pop up to support you out of the blue.
This is not about the money - this is about an intelligent, beautiful creature. The female is doing wonderfully and I am thankful for that.
The male died with a full belly, was almost 1.5 inches fat, and until the last few hours had beautiful colors. I have not lost another fish. It was quaranteed by Warren for a while even before I got it and then I QTed for 2 weeks.
I'll have the official test results by NYC poison control by Wednesday. You cannot argue with that.
If I'm wrong, then I will apologize. If not...
Justjoe
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7091438#post7091438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Johnsteph10
It is nice to see all of the support I am getting from my own club.
I'll have the official test results by NYC poison control by Wednesday. You cannot argue with that.
All of the statements so far by the club members have been more then fair, if they don't support your suspicions that doesn't show a lack of support.
What kind of poison test? If you have a test that would be appropriate for testing marine fish, that would be welcomed by everyone here and in the industry.
Joe
John,
Can you find out what test procedures they use to test for cyanide? A reliable cyanide test for use in fish more than a day or two after capture as long been sought for by the people in the industry and others that have been looking to reform the cyanide trade from PI and Indo. As Joe mentioned earlier, to date, all tests methodologies that have been tried gave many false positives and very inconsistent results. If you would like to put your test labs procedures through the ringer to see what type of results they would get from testing multiple samples of non-cyanide caught fish, I would be happy to go out collecting locally for you.
Can you find out what test procedures they use to test for cyanide? A reliable cyanide test for use in fish more than a day or two after capture as long been sought for by the people in the industry and others that have been looking to reform the cyanide trade from PI and Indo. As Joe mentioned earlier, to date, all tests methodologies that have been tried gave many false positives and very inconsistent results. If you would like to put your test labs procedures through the ringer to see what type of results they would get from testing multiple samples of non-cyanide caught fish, I would be happy to go out collecting locally for you.
alikatoes
Premium Member
John,
Again I'm sorry for your loss. I didnt know about all the stuff your club members are saying (inconclusive test results), so dont feel bad. Perhaps rather than placing blame, we could all work together and find out what happened. Could you post a picture of your dying/dead crosshatch, I'm sure you took several before having the city mourgue and CSI NY perform the autopsy. More specific information would also be useful.
If CH are dying from anything we should all gather information so that we know what to prevent. I too have seen CH die and not know why and would really welcome the help from pros like yall. I do however know that I am not stupid enough to use cyanide. It is not logical to capture a fish with cyanide at 170+ feet deep. Think about it... If your having trouble ask me questions and we can all derive answers for the greater good.
Increasing our survival rates, from Collecter all the way to the fish tank, will better the industry and the natural populations. You should see this as an oppurtunity not to blame your collecter but to better me so that I can better serve you all.
ps I dont use cyanide!!! I give you my word as a fishloving freak.
Again I'm sorry for your loss. I didnt know about all the stuff your club members are saying (inconclusive test results), so dont feel bad. Perhaps rather than placing blame, we could all work together and find out what happened. Could you post a picture of your dying/dead crosshatch, I'm sure you took several before having the city mourgue and CSI NY perform the autopsy. More specific information would also be useful.
If CH are dying from anything we should all gather information so that we know what to prevent. I too have seen CH die and not know why and would really welcome the help from pros like yall. I do however know that I am not stupid enough to use cyanide. It is not logical to capture a fish with cyanide at 170+ feet deep. Think about it... If your having trouble ask me questions and we can all derive answers for the greater good.
Increasing our survival rates, from Collecter all the way to the fish tank, will better the industry and the natural populations. You should see this as an oppurtunity not to blame your collecter but to better me so that I can better serve you all.
ps I dont use cyanide!!! I give you my word as a fishloving freak.
Johnsteph10
New member
alikatoes,
I just want to apologize for my harsh words. I've thought about how I came across (and re-read the thread) and I realize that I did not act responsively or maturely. You have my sincerest regrets.
To address those above - there are 3 tests for cyanide that properly equipped labs can perform. The reason that they are not widespread to the general populace is that they multistep, complicated, expensive, and involve dangerous controlled chemicals.
One of the easier methods is to use a gas chromatograph (GC) which can identify substances in a sample liquid.
How many CH have you had die in your collection system that appeared to be perfectly healthy (eating/properly decompressed, etc.)? How many do you hear of die in home aquariums?
I just want to apologize for my harsh words. I've thought about how I came across (and re-read the thread) and I realize that I did not act responsively or maturely. You have my sincerest regrets.
To address those above - there are 3 tests for cyanide that properly equipped labs can perform. The reason that they are not widespread to the general populace is that they multistep, complicated, expensive, and involve dangerous controlled chemicals.
One of the easier methods is to use a gas chromatograph (GC) which can identify substances in a sample liquid.
How many CH have you had die in your collection system that appeared to be perfectly healthy (eating/properly decompressed, etc.)? How many do you hear of die in home aquariums?
Johnsteph10
New member
P.S. - Chris - thanks for making me think, man.
