My Neptune Apex web interface compatible DIY reef controller

[theatrus]

As an aside, does the controller/driver or the motor block tend to fail first in these pumps? If it's the motor block, are the windings/insulation/etc actually faulted or is it mechanical wear?

There are tons of ways to do things "good enough" but with higher failure chances or worse performance - even EcoTech pre-QD drivers were not very good, but it would help to know what needs the most improvement.

 

[WaterMagnet]

When connecting Jebao wave pumps, do I need to build a pwn circuit similar to that shown for the Fans in the schematic or does it work directly from the output from the Arduino.

 

[cjmdh]

Directly from the PWM pins on the Arduino.


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[d0ughb0y]

When connecting Jebao wave pumps, do I need to build a pwn circuit similar to that shown for the Fans in the schematic or does it work directly from the output from the Arduino.

the fan pwm is connected directly from the arduino.

the other circuit is for rpm measurement and for turning off the fan power and are not needed for pump control.

 

[d0ughb0y]

As an aside, does the controller/driver or the motor block tend to fail first in these pumps? If it's the motor block, are the windings/insulation/etc actually faulted or is it mechanical wear?

There are tons of ways to do things "good enough" but with higher failure chances or worse performance - even EcoTech pre-QD drivers were not very good, but it would help to know what needs the most improvement.

I'd say a good portion of that is plain old user error. Some get it with a pre-conceived notion that it will fail and will make sure it will fail. I'm sure the competition did some part in disseminating bad publicity. As I stated, I think the controller itself was pretty well designed.

I do not recall reading about dcs or dct pump failures, only dc pump and the WP and RW pumps. and the dct pumps has been out since 2014, and dcs is essentially the same as dct pump.

I just did a google search and only found one, and its a youtube video showing dct pump issue. And from the blinking light error code, it is a power supply error. I got the same blinking light if I use a 12v power supply on the controller. I just thought I'd try, since the icecap gyre interface is supposed to work even with 12v, but apparently, the stock pump controller does not (assuming gyre controller does not work with 12v as well).

 

[d0ughb0y]

I am searching for a single chip bldc motor controller, but it seems like everything out there requires hall sensors.

I did find an atmel avr application note on how to program the avr chip as a sensorless motor controller. It only requires the avr cpu, the FET drivers, and a bunch of resistor dividers for BEMF reading. I'll probably give this a try and see how it goes. I have to analyze/understand the code and convert it to arduino code. If it works, all the parts should not cost more than $20. bldc motor control is all new to me.

The advantage of using arduino to control is, it should be a simple matter to add features like apex interface, backup battery detection (if input voltage falls from 24v to 12v). I think the avr sample code has code for detecting overcurrent and stalling.

 

[theatrus]

Some of the TI DRV chips can be set to run in an open loop mode without Hall effect sensors or FG trace inputs. It's not super obvious from the data sheet but it is in the mode setting section.

Digital SPI speed control is a nice way to avoid the need to write any realtime motor control code

 

[d0ughb0y]

Some of the TI DRV chips can be set to run in an open loop mode without Hall effect sensors or FG trace inputs. It's not super obvious from the data sheet but it is in the mode setting section.

Digital SPI speed control is a nice way to avoid the need to write any realtime motor control code

I looked at a few TI chips and did not find any sensorless application info.
From what I understand reading the chip with SPI input datasheet, it is still the cpu that controls the commutation by sending commands to the motor controller chip via SPI.

I am wondering if the use of LM339 comparator is to convert the BEMF to digital data that can be used for hall sensor input. If that is the case, then there will be more motor controller chip choices. The Atmel application note reads the BEMF resistor divider signal using analog input, and compares it to reference from motor power supply (24v) resistor divider. I think the function of the LM339 is the same, except the output is already digital.

The chip used in jebao controller I'm pretty sure is a cpu or a cpu/motor controller combo, as the same chip drives the LEDs and input to push buttons.

 

[theatrus]

My Neptune Apex web interface compatible DIY reef controller

The 3 phase controller I was looking at featured an open loop mode: http://m.ti.com/product/drv8308

The Jebao is likely using an MCU for motor controller. There isn't anything wrong with this at all, it's just software to write

And yes, the LM339 would act as the threshold detect, assuming the MCU used doesn't have ADCs (or reasonable ones). Mind linking the app note from Atmel?

 

[d0ughb0y]

The 3 phase controller I was looking at featured an open loop mode: http://m.ti.com/product/drv8308

The Jebao is likely using an MCU for motor controller. There isn't anything wrong with this at all, it's just software to write

And yes, the LM339 would act as the threshold detect, assuming the MCU used doesn't have ADCs (or reasonable ones). Mind linking the app note from Atmel?

http://www.atmel.com/images/doc8012.pdf

 

[WaterMagnet]

Directly from the PWM pins on the Arduino.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks

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[WaterMagnet]

the fan pwm is connected directly from the arduino.

the other circuit is for rpm measurement and for turning off the fan power and are not needed for pump control.

Thanks

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[d0ughb0y]

The 3 phase controller I was looking at featured an open loop mode: http://m.ti.com/product/drv8308

The Jebao is likely using an MCU for motor controller. There isn't anything wrong with this at all, it's just software to write

And yes, the LM339 would act as the threshold detect, assuming the MCU used doesn't have ADCs (or reasonable ones). Mind linking the app note from Atmel?

I read the mode section. I think it is for speed control, and not for commutation? or are they one and the same? My understanding is, the pwm for speed control controls the voltage applied to the motor coil, so the higher the voltage the faster the motor will spin. The sensor (bemf or hall) tells the controller when to switch to the next commutation state.

 

[stage3-s4]

I'm looking to get one of these DCT pumps but would want to have my PLC control it via a 0-10v or 0-5V input signal like the waveline pumps or older Jabeo pumps. Is that even a possibility with these new controllers? It sounds to me like it wasn't at this point. Not sure if something can be developed to make it work using an analog input signal.

 

[d0ughb0y]

I'm looking to get one of these DCT pumps but would want to have my PLC control it via a 0-10v or 0-5V input signal like the waveline pumps or older Jabeo pumps. Is that even a possibility with these new controllers? It sounds to me like it wasn't at this point. Not sure if something can be developed to make it work using an analog input signal.

you will need an interface module for it to work, and that is what I am working on.

You can always get the icecap gyre interface for $125 (probably can't handle pumps higher than 50watts). But that already costs more than the dct pump itself. I know 99% of people will readily fork over $125, but I think there has to be another option.

 

[karimwassef]

Still not sure of the benefit of creating a whole drive circuit vs hot-overriding the native controller's buttons.

The work and complexity is disproportionately more for a small range of additional control?

 

[stage3-s4]

you will need an interface module for it to work, and that is what I am working on.

You can always get the icecap gyre interface for $125 (probably can't handle pumps higher than 50watts). But that already costs more than the dct pump itself. I know 99% of people will readily fork over $125, but I think there has to be another option.

yea thats what I figured. So you are basically creating your own motor controller? Is the actual motor different between the older pumps and the newer DCT/DCS? Just wondering why the older controller would not work with the new pump.

Would I be able to use what you are developing as standalone unit without an adrunio? That would be great.

yea I'm not willing to fork over $125 for an interface.

 

[d0ughb0y]

Still not sure of the benefit of creating a whole drive circuit vs hot-overriding the native controller's buttons.

The work and complexity is disproportionately more for a small range of additional control?

you need 3 IO lines to do that vs only 1 pwm with a stand alone controller. Plus you get full control, like dial down to lower than 70%. It looks hard (specially considering I have 0 knowledge on bldc motors), but I think is doable or at least worth a try.

yea thats what I figured. So you are basically creating your own motor controller? Is the actual motor different between the older pumps and the newer DCT/DCS? Just wondering why the older controller would not work with the new pump.

Would I be able to use what you are developing as standalone unit without an adrunio? That would be great.

yea I'm not willing to fork over $125 for an interface.

I'll see how it goes.
What model pump are you using?

 

[stage3-s4]

you need 3 IO lines to do that vs only 1 pwm with a stand alone controller. Plus you get full control, like dial down to lower than 70%. It looks hard (specially considering I have 0 knowledge on bldc motors), but I think is doable or at least worth a try.



I'll see how it goes.
What model pump are you using?

I was planning to use a DCS7000. I don't have the pump yet though.

 

[karimwassef]

you need 3 IO lines to do that vs only 1 pwm with a stand alone controller. Plus you get full control, like dial down to lower than 70%. It looks hard (specially considering I have 0 knowledge on bldc motors), but I think is doable or at least worth a try.

3 IO seems like a reasonable compromise to avoid risk that could cause degrade the pump performance? I'm assuming UP, DOWN, FEED?

I'm all for finer control though... just that perfect is the enemy of the good.