N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing) - Split

so in everyones opinion why should i change from carbon dosing that hasn't kicked in yet..but have cyano all over to bio pellets?

Unfortunately BioPellets can be utilized by both bacteria and cyanobacteria. Both produce PHA as a energy storage mechanism. :(

Reading through this double thread, it seems to me that the biopellets are not very effective at reducing cyanobacterial growth. ;)
 
Highland I'm not trying to argue but if the pellets help reduce phos and nitrate I would think it would help fight cyano. Please explain how it might not help. Just wondering because I am running pellets and fighting cyano. Thanks
 
Unfortunately BioPellets can be utilized by both bacteria and cyanobacteria. Both produce PHA as a energy storage mechanism. :(

Reading through this double thread, it seems to me that the biopellets are not very effective at reducing cyanobacterial growth. ;)

Hi HighlandReefer - How does the equation involving PHA change with regard to EtOH or VSV as opposed to solid carbon dosing..?

Oh and BTW what is PHA and is it the bacteria that produces it?

TIA,

Sheldon
 
Highland I'm not trying to argue but if the pellets help reduce phos and nitrate I would think it would help fight cyano. Please explain how it might not help.

Adding organic matter can provide food for cyano. The effect is fairly clear with some organics that adding them encourages cyanobacteria. :)
 
Highland I'm not trying to argue but if the pellets help reduce phos and nitrate I would think it would help fight cyano. Please explain how it might not help. Just wondering because I am running pellets and fighting cyano. Thanks

There is a competition between bacteria and cyano for phosphate and nitrate. Both can utilize the bio-pellets. Most cyanobacteria are phototrophic which gives them an edge to out-compete the bacteria once established. To reduce the cyanobacteria population, one would want to use a carbon source that cyanobacteria can't use. According to the scientific literature I have read, vinegar does not increase cyanobacteria growth, whereas vodka and biopellets can. Therefore vinegar would be my choice when fighting a pest like cyanobacteria. ;)
 
Hi HighlandReefer - How does the equation involving PHA change with regard to EtOH or VSV as opposed to solid carbon dosing..?

Oh and BTW what is PHA and is it the bacteria that produces it?

TIA,

Sheldon

Both bacteria and cyanobacteria produce PHA naturally within their cell structure. ;)

"Polyhydroxyalkanoates

Chemical structures of P3HB, PHV and their copolymer PHBV
Polyhydroxyalkanoates or PHAs are linear polyesters produced in nature by bacterial fermentation of sugar or lipids. They are produced by the bacteria to store carbon and energy. More than 150 different monomers can be combined within this family to give materials with extremely different properties.[1] These plastics are biodegradeable and are used in the production of bioplastics.

They can be either thermoplastic or elastomeric materials, with melting points ranging from 40 to 180 °C.

The mechanical and biocompatibility of PHA can also be changed by blending, modifying the surface or combining PHA with other polymers, enzymes and inorganic materials, making it possible for a wider range of applications.[2]


Certain strains of Bacillus subtilis bacteria can be used to produce polyhydroxyalkanoates

To produce PHA, a culture of a micro-organism such as Alcaligenes eutrophus is placed in a suitable medium and fed appropriate nutrients so that it multiplies rapidly. Once the population has reached a substantial level, the nutrient composition is changed to force the micro-organism to synthesize PHA. The yield of PHA obtained from the intracellular inclusions can be as high as 80% of the organism's dry weight.

The biosynthesis of PHA is usually caused by certain deficiency conditions (e.g. lack of macro elements such as phosphorus, nitrogen, trace elements, or lack of oxygen) and the excess supply of carbon sources.

Polyesters are deposited in the form of highly refractive granules in the cells. Depending upon the microorganism and the cultivation conditions, ****- or copolyesters with different hydroxyalkanic acids are generated. PHAs granules are then recovered by disrupting the cells [3]

Recombinants Bacillus subtilis str. pBE2C1 and Bacillus subtilis str. pBE2C1AB were used in production of polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHA) and it was shown that they could use malt waste as carbon source for lower cost of PHA production.

PHA synthases are the key enzymes of PHA biosynthesis. They use the coenzyme A - thioester of (r)-hydroxy fatty acids as substrates. The two classes of PHA synthases differ in the specific use of hydroxyfattyacids of short or medium chain length.

The resulting PHA is of the two types:
Poly (HA SCL) from hydroxy fatty acids with short chain lengths including three to five carbon atoms are synthesized by numerous bacteria, including Ralstonia eutropha and Alcaligenes latus (PHB).
Poly (HA MCL) from hydroxy fatty acids with middle chain lengths including six to 14 carbon atoms, can be made for example, by Pseudomonas putida.

A few bacteria, including Aeromonas hydrophila and Thiococcus pfennigii, synthesize copolyester, from the above two types of hydroxy fatty acids or at least possess enzymes that are part of this building are capable of.

Another even large scale synthesis can be done with the help of soil organisms. For lack of nitrogen and phosphorus they produce from three kilograms of sugar a kilogram of PHA.


The simplest and most commonly occurring form of PHA is the fermentative production of poly-beta-hydroxybutyrate) (poly-3-hydroxybutyrate, P3HB), which consists of 1000 to 30000 hydroxy fatty acid monomers"
 
Both bacteria and cyanobacteria produce PHA naturally within their cell structure. ;)

"Polyhydroxyalkanoates

Chemical structures of P3HB, PHV and their copolymer PHBV
Polyhydroxyalkanoates or PHAs are linear polyesters produced in nature by bacterial fermentation of sugar or lipids. They are produced by the bacteria to store carbon and energy. More than 150 different monomers can be combined within this family to give materials with extremely different properties.[1] These plastics are biodegradeable and are used in the production of bioplastics.

They can be either thermoplastic or elastomeric materials, with melting points ranging from 40 to 180 °C.

The mechanical and biocompatibility of PHA can also be changed by blending, modifying the surface or combining PHA with other polymers, enzymes and inorganic materials, making it possible for a wider range of applications.[2]


Certain strains of Bacillus subtilis bacteria can be used to produce polyhydroxyalkanoates

To produce PHA, a culture of a micro-organism such as Alcaligenes eutrophus is placed in a suitable medium and fed appropriate nutrients so that it multiplies rapidly. Once the population has reached a substantial level, the nutrient composition is changed to force the micro-organism to synthesize PHA. The yield of PHA obtained from the intracellular inclusions can be as high as 80% of the organism's dry weight.

The biosynthesis of PHA is usually caused by certain deficiency conditions (e.g. lack of macro elements such as phosphorus, nitrogen, trace elements, or lack of oxygen) and the excess supply of carbon sources.

Polyesters are deposited in the form of highly refractive granules in the cells. Depending upon the microorganism and the cultivation conditions, ****- or copolyesters with different hydroxyalkanic acids are generated. PHAs granules are then recovered by disrupting the cells [3]

Recombinants Bacillus subtilis str. pBE2C1 and Bacillus subtilis str. pBE2C1AB were used in production of polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHA) and it was shown that they could use malt waste as carbon source for lower cost of PHA production.

PHA synthases are the key enzymes of PHA biosynthesis. They use the coenzyme A - thioester of (r)-hydroxy fatty acids as substrates. The two classes of PHA synthases differ in the specific use of hydroxyfattyacids of short or medium chain length.

The resulting PHA is of the two types:
Poly (HA SCL) from hydroxy fatty acids with short chain lengths including three to five carbon atoms are synthesized by numerous bacteria, including Ralstonia eutropha and Alcaligenes latus (PHB).
Poly (HA MCL) from hydroxy fatty acids with middle chain lengths including six to 14 carbon atoms, can be made for example, by Pseudomonas putida.

A few bacteria, including Aeromonas hydrophila and Thiococcus pfennigii, synthesize copolyester, from the above two types of hydroxy fatty acids or at least possess enzymes that are part of this building are capable of.

Another even large scale synthesis can be done with the help of soil organisms. For lack of nitrogen and phosphorus they produce from three kilograms of sugar a kilogram of PHA.


The simplest and most commonly occurring form of PHA is the fermentative production of poly-beta-hydroxybutyrate) (poly-3-hydroxybutyrate, P3HB), which consists of 1000 to 30000 hydroxy fatty acid monomers"

Okay - so I've read this once... looks like I'll have to study it a few more times before I'm confident that I properly understand it...:hmm4: But it does certainly give me a place to start. Thanks.

Regards,

Sheldon
 
... Therefore vinegar would be my choice when fighting a pest like cyanobacteria... ;)
I agree that that vinegar is a very good carbon form , sometimes i dose it in combination with pellets (monthly a few times).
Also i have good results with weekly dosing DOM from coral shop , consists out of eight marine carbohydrates .

But my experiences with cyano are that they will grow in low flow area's , never have seen them grow in high flow area's (in my tank) .

There where the flow is too low , bacteria and cyano will uptake N/P but they don't have a change of leaving the system ( the way to the skimmer... :) ) and they die in that spot , toghether with higher rate of sedementation in that area (detrius build-up) it is a recipy for algea and N/P build up.
You will see it on sand surfaces to , because the flow is reduced alot due to resitance created by the that sandbed in the first couple of mm above the sandbed.
This is one of the reasons that i removed my sand bed from display , on the sand near the rocks there was always a little bit of cyano , now it's completly gone.
In my sump i still have a DSB but there i have tonnes of flow over the DSB and i don't have any cyano issues.

so redirecting a powerhead or uping the overall flow thru the system could also do some good things ( but don't disturb the sandbed to much though)
And or dosing some other carbon sources (diversity) once in a while would be beneficial too .

greetingzz tntneon :)
 
Randy,

Why did you select Vinegar instead of Vodka for example?

The big difference in carbon dosing with pellets is the fact that you don't have to be there , for instannce if you go on a holiday you still have a carbon supplement w/o you being there.



I dose with a dosing pump on a timer that draws from a 1 gallon container of vinegar, so it runs when I am not around. :)
 
I'm sure Randy will Chime in, but Highland reefers post has a comment which may lend some creedence as to why.

There is a competition between bacteria and cyano for phosphate and nitrate. Both can utilize the bio-pellets. Most cyanobacteria are phototrophic which gives them an edge to out-compete the bacteria once established. To reduce the cyanobacteria population, one would want to use a carbon source that cyanobacteria can't use. According to the scientific literature I have read, vinegar does not increase cyanobacteria growth, whereas vodka and biopellets can. Therefore vinegar would be my choice when fighting a pest like cyanobacteria.
 
I used vodka first and found it promoted cyano in my tank. Vinegar did not seem to do so, and that result has been supported by many others since then.
 
Hi Randy,

I transitioned from zeovit to the pellets and so far after only a month and a half I have no issues "YET". I'm going to see how this plays out for my small system.

when you transitioned from the vodka to the vinegar, did you dose any supplemental bacteria like MB7 or zeobac to get things back in balance, or did you just let the system balance itself?
 
Can bacteria and algae fight each other--much like corals do (chemical warfare)? Can they eat each other? I know phytoplankton is like a free floating algae that corals can feed off of. How well does cyanobacteria float in the water column? What coral speices can feed off of them?
 
when you transitioned from the vodka to the vinegar, did you dose any supplemental bacteria like MB7 or zeobac to get things back in balance, or did you just let the system balance itself?


No, I just relied on naturally present bacteria. :)

Can bacteria and algae fight each other--much like corals do (chemical warfare)? Can they eat each other? I know phytoplankton is like a free floating algae that corals can feed off of. How well does cyanobacteria float in the water column? What coral speices can feed off of them?



Bacteria and algae do not generally eat each other, but they can potenntially release agents to kill nearby organisms. I do not know if any corals consume cyano that is free floating.
 
An observation I made when I had cyano issues with zeovit was when I accidentally bumped my alk up past 8, that seemed to be when the cyano became noticeable. Wondering if others had the same experience with the pellets?
 
when you transitioned from the vodka to the vinegar, did you dose any supplemental bacteria like MB7 or zeobac to get things back in balance, or did you just let the system balance itself?


No, I just relied on naturally present bacteria. :)

Can bacteria and algae fight each other--much like corals do (chemical warfare)? Can they eat each other? I know phytoplankton is like a free floating algae that corals can feed off of. How well does cyanobacteria float in the water column? What coral speices can feed off of them?



Bacteria and algae do not generally eat each other, but they can potenntially release agents to kill nearby organisms. I do not know if any corals consume cyano that is free floating.

Thanks Randy,

Good to know!

So far so good, but if things go south for me, I may or may not go back to zeovit and definately will consider the vinegar. I have a couple of novatech perstaltic pumps that I can configure for dosing if I go the vinegar route.

Thanks for your remarks!

Happy reefing

Tivo
 
My biggest concern in dosing vinegar over vodka is the drop in Ph. I know all carbon dosing even vodka will lower Ph, but with an acidic carbon source such as vinegar, I expect the drop to be more significant.

If not for the anecdotal evidence found in various tank regarding cyano and vodka, I'd start dosing vodka. Am I worrying too much about the Ph drop, how much did you Ph drop when you started?

Also, in terms of price is vinegar a cheaper carbon source than vodka right? Granted you have to use more vinegar than you do vodka. Not sure that had any bearing on the decision.

Great discussion by the way, I look forward to your replies.

I used vodka first and found it promoted cyano in my tank. Vinegar did not seem to do so, and that result has been supported by many others since then.
 
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but with an acidic carbon source such as vinegar, I expect the drop to be more significant.

It won't be if the dose is spread out. The final effect over time is the same as vodka, not worse.

That said, you can also put solid lime into the vinegar if you are still concerned once you dose and observe pH too low. :)

Vinegar is a little cheaper.
 
update after lunch today!

went home for luch (only work a mile away-nice!)

PO4 is at .02 (hanna photometer), nitrate is still at 3ppm (tunze measuring box and new cheap API kit)-both are the same. Starting to see signs of cyano on the sand. Not bad but I know what cyano looks like so I slowed the output of the reactor a bit so the pellets tumble slower. my pH is at 8.4 , sg is 1.026, ca 420, kh 7.5, mg 1300. I increased flow to my vortechs in hopes that will help keep it down. lighting may or may not be an issue but I'm running a 6 month old 250wt 14k phoenix bulb on a 7 hour photoperiod and I don't have means to measure PAR but I suspect I should be okay.

I'll just stay the course with weekly 10% WC's and continue basting the sump and LR along with changing my filter sock every 3 days and see where this goes.

Tivo
 
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