N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

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jlinzmaier said:
Wow, very interesting observation!! If there is algae growth, there is enough N and P for bacterial proliferation (regardless of your undetectable P readings from your kit) so it's very interesting that you get algea growth right on the pellets. Nitrifying bacteria can outcompete algea for N, P, and C so the fact that there is algae growing on your pellets is a pretty clear indication they aren't providing enough C to induce bacterial growth. What brand of BP's were those Dave??

Jeremy
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Algae can utilise carbon as a food source, its how you grow algae and macrophytes using agar and sucrose in the lab under semi-axenic or under sterile conditions. Usually bacteria will outcompete algae, this won't be a problem if the reactor is kept in the dark. I think dosing some denitrifying bacteria into your system Dave will help you out.
 
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it's the original NP pellets that started this thread.

I refuse to add bacteria again. The manufacturer never mentioned needing to ADD MORE than just the pellets, if they can't deliver, then they may as well be frauds. If someone sold you a skimmer and you needed an extra pump to feed it...they mention that....and it's understandable. But these pellets are supposed to work by them selves. And even without a reactor. If they don't then it's false advertising.
 
daveonbass said:
it's the original NP pellets that started this thread.

I refuse to add bacteria again. The manufacturer never mentioned needing to ADD MORE than just the pellets, if they can't deliver, then they may as well be frauds. If someone sold you a skimmer and you needed an extra pump to feed it...they mention that....and it's understandable. But these pellets are supposed to work by them selves. And even without a reactor. If they don't then it's false advertising.
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It is odd that the pellets do not seem to work in your system. The bacteria you need should occur in your system especially using live rock and in an established aquaria. I think PO4 might be the limiting factor.

The information provided by the manufacturer is dodgy, the website has fictitious information on it including fictitious diagrams of bacteria colonising the pellets over time, but I guess at least they state it as fictitious. Plus the diagram of the pellet being colonised by bacteria is rediculously simplified and states nitrifying bacteria would colonise it. When it is proven that nitrifying bacteria do not like or use dissolved organic material, so any nitrifying bacteria on the pellets will be in negligible amounts. I think this should read aerobic organic bacteria. It is also too focused on bacteria (without actually mentioning the correct type of bacteria that is likely to feed on the pellets), it doesn't mention the other types of microorganisms that will be inhabiting this organic carbon source. I know they want to focus on the nitrate reducing ability of the pellets, but the explanation is lacking a lot of credability regarding the science it suggests in going on. I agree it is false advertising. They cannot guarentee it will work for everyone because there are quite a lot of unknowns as every system is different.
 
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ari5736 said:
Are there people out there that can conclusively say the pellets have worked for them?

As for me, I started with 1.5 liter in March on my 180 gallons of water. Added 1 liter more in June, and I am only seeing my Nitrates increase. My flow through the reactor is high and the pellets are all fluidized. My NO3 gradually increased from about 10-30ppm over the past few months. I definitely don't have any nitrate sinks, and got the NP reactor's output flowing a skimmer oversize by anyone's standards. I started cutting back feeding which I rather not do.
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Anyone?
 
Hold the presses, just tested nitrates, last week >30ppm, right now my API kit is showing bright yellow! So it looks like 3 liters for about 180 gallons of water does the trick. Time to ramp up feeding and see if nitrates hold. Also want to double check results with a Salifert test.

Edit: Salifert shows around 15ppm, still an improvement, but wondering if my 40 gallon water change last Thursday didn't have some influence on these numbers.

Edit: Api and retest of Salifert both show 15ppm. Oh well, I got excited there for a minute.
 
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I thought the biopellets were working for me, but I made the obviously stupid mistake of trying 2 things at once and it wasn't the pellets that were doing the job.

I have also been dosing with AZ-NO3 ("absolute zero nitrate" - great name!) and that warns of cloudy water 3-5 days into treatment which is the same MO as the pellets so I confused one with the other. When I went to look at the fluidising reactor for the pellets, it STILL isn't tumbling and in fact a 2,000l/h pump was producing nothing more than a trickle through it. The pellets were all stuck together and when I took the reactor apart the sulphur smell was unmistakeable.

Subsequently, I have removed all by 20% of the pellets and put the reactor back so they are actually tumbling. However, that is about 200ml of pellets for a 200g tank, which is clearly nowhere near enough. In the meantime, my NO3 has gone from 250+ (yes, I know) to about 75 and water clarity is getting better all the time.

Well, I say that, but current clarity is somewhat worse than normal - one of my BTAs committed suicide by getting sucked into a pump so there's bits of anemone everywhere. No doubt that's going to cause issues with nitrite now. Water change, water change, water change.... sometimes the old-fashioned route is the only route.

PS. What's interesting about the AZ-NO3 is that neither premium vodka nor ZeoStart2 were able to do anything about my nitrate level but this product worked quickly. I guess it goes to show that all tanks are different, because my previous tank worked perfectly with vodka alone and now it's completely ineffective!
 
Will the "mulm" on top of the surface layer of the beads eventually dissapate into the water column?
I also took off the plastic screen from the top of the reactor hoping to reduce the clogging caused by the mulm. I don't see the need for the top screen once the pellets stop floating from day one.
 
Finally managed to get my phosphate level measured.

PO4 level is at 0,1

do you guys think this value constitutes a limiting factor, not letting the BP work properly?
 
If you mean 0.1ppm ,then no. That's actually fairly high ;most aim for .03ppm or less. I beleive upper reef waters run around .005ppm
 
In response to the recent posts in this thread concerning the pellets not working in a particular system, I agree that in certain systems either nitrate or phosphate could be a limiting factor. However, it does appear that certain systems which are neither nitrate or phosphate limited have little success with the pellets. A thought that comes to my mind is perhaps what is happening in those systems is other less desireable species of bacteria are able to out compete (for unknown reasons which may be specific to the system) the desired species (whom are materially more efficient at uptaking nitrate and/or phosphate) for the pellets (carbon source provided by the pellets is an equal opportunity food source for any bacteria species in the system, which has has many different species). I allude to this in the below thread where I found other waste water treatment technologies apparently deal with this issue by innoculating the polymer or other biodegradeable material with the desired species of bacteria which is best suited to consume particular kinds of waste.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1893560

Applying this logic, some systems may benefit from heavy daily dosing of desired bacterial species in close proximity of the pellets with the skimmer off for multiple hours thereafter, thereby possibly turning the tide and system domination in favor of the desired and dosed bacterial species.
 
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It's a pity that the label does not say:
  • This only works if you're very lucky!
  • if you have a specific type of bacteria from hell
  • if you have lots of phosphates
  • Only! if you have 315,587445 G/h exactly, passing through the pellets.
  • if you don't dose anything else
  • if you don't use active carbon
  • and finaly.... if you leave an entire sheet of nori floating until it is rotten...

all of this sounds like a load of crap to me, don't you think?

I think this is a case of misleading advertising :hammer:
 
There are no magic beans in this hobby. They work for some and not others, that is actually normal in this hobby. Too many variables. VSV doesn't work for all people but that doesn't mean it is a load of crap. Sulphur denitrators do not work for everyone, one skimmer may work great on my tank, but not so good on yours. It's the nature of the hobby, which by all standards, is still very much in it's infancy.

I wish it were easier than that, for some people's sake, but the things that are easy are just no fun. Part of the thrill in this hobby is in the unknown variables and the challenges and the learning. Take that away and we might as well have Neon Tetras in our tanks. Relax and enjoy the beauty that not too many years ago was rare to have in our homes. Take this hobby for what it is...a hobby...one that you grow with personally, intellectually and spiritually. It is what it is, let it be what it is. :-)

If your nitrates and phosphates are high, we already know how to reduce them...water changes, always works with out fail, but there are other methods coming into play, solid carbon is one of them, but it still is no magic bean.
 
kernnell said:
It's a pity that the label does not say:
  • This only works if you're very lucky!
  • if you have a specific type of bacteria from hell
  • if you have lots of phosphates
  • Only! if you have 315,587445 G/h exactly, passing through the pellets.
  • if you don't dose anything else
  • if you don't use active carbon
  • and finaly.... if you leave an entire sheet of nori floating until it is rotten...

all of this sounds like a load of crap to me, don't you think?

I think this is a case of misleading advertising :hammer:
Click to expand...

That's funny.
 
sirreal63 said:
There are no magic beans in this hobby. They work for some and not others, that is actually normal in this hobby. Too many variables. VSV doesn't work for all people but that doesn't mean it is a load of crap. Sulphur denitrators do not work for everyone, one skimmer may work great on my tank, but not so good on yours. It's the nature of the hobby, which by all standards, is still very much in it's infancy.

I wish it were easier than that, for some people's sake, but the things that are easy are just no fun. Part of the thrill in this hobby is in the unknown variables and the challenges and the learning. Take that away and we might as well have Neon Tetras in our tanks. Relax and enjoy the beauty that not too many years ago was rare to have in our homes. Take this hobby for what it is...a hobby...one that you grow with personally, intellectually and spiritually. It is what it is, let it be what it is. :-)

If your nitrates and phosphates are high, we already know how to reduce them...water changes, always works with out fail, but there are other methods coming into play, solid carbon is one of them, but it still is no magic bean.
Click to expand...

My question, is who have these worked for that is not selling them, or can possibly attribute success lowering NP to another factor.

I have asked this question at least once before on this thread and I haven't seen anyone answer affirmatively yet.
 
ari5736 said:
My question, is who have these worked for that is not selling them, or can possibly attribute success lowering NP to another factor.

I have asked this question at least once before on this thread and I haven't seen anyone answer affirmatively yet.
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Well, although I have not followed this lengthy thread as much as the other pellet threads, particularly b/c I am using Warner Marine' s version, I have read plenty of accounts from others who have successfully reduced both their nitrate and phosphate as an apparent proximate result of the application of the pellets. Perhaps the best and most well-documented example is Sedor (see his thread below). I do not think Sedor is affiliated with any of these pellet products.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867825
 
kernnell said:
It's a pity that the label does not say:
  • This only works if you're very lucky!
  • if you have a specific type of bacteria from hell
  • if you have lots of phosphates
  • Only! if you have 315,587445 G/h exactly, passing through the pellets.
  • if you don't dose anything else
  • if you don't use active carbon
  • and finaly.... if you leave an entire sheet of nori floating until it is rotten...

all of this sounds like a load of crap to me, don't you think?

I think this is a case of misleading advertising :hammer:
Click to expand...

it sounds funny but , but isn't true IMO

-I didn't had or have any phosphates
-flow fluctuates with my w/o knowing exact rate
-i do use actif carbon
-i don't use GFO
-i don't leave anything rotting in my tank

Only thing i did had was alot of GHA and Cyano who are completly gonne now.

I only practiced alot of patience and good maintenance ( WC weekly , skimmercup cleaning every week , change carbon 3 - weekly , blowing / brushing LR off)

the difference before/after pellets is mindblowing in my tank.

i find it said that they don't work for you guys , i almost feel guilty in starting this thread....:sad2:
 
I just took my 2 liters of NP Biopellets and 1 liter of Vertex Pellets in a large Nextreef offline, and hooked my Sulfur reactor back up. Before I give up on this invest of almost 1/2 a grand I will let the pellets soak offline in tank water and some bacterial (probably zeo) product, and read more threads. Maybe I will add another liter of Warner Marine or SWC pellets so I know I have tried everything. Also the sulfur reactor should have my 15ppm of nitrates down to nothing next week and maybe my pellet reactor can keep up with 0 nitrates?
 
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