N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[HighlandReefer]

You're all in uncharted territories. May the force be with you. :lol:

Kidding aside, we only have the PCL patent to work with. It is my impression that the author of the patent recommended to Thoroughly mix the pellets into the gravel bed once every 6-12 months. The idea I suppose is to give space between each BioPellet to allow bacteria to grow between & on the gravel in addition to directly on the pellets. I am under the impression that the author did not clean the gravel bed in any way during the period he tested it. If you don't have to clean the gravel bed this would be a plus IMHO. This is quite a switch for a reef tank bottom from using the finer sand mixes that we are used too.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I would highly recommend that you read the Patent article I am referring too for those interested in implementing the other possibilities for using the biopellets in place of the PCL product. Perhaps money can be saved. I am assuming that the BP BioPellets will act the same way as the PCL pellets.

This is a direct link to the Patent on my online file folder which is much more readable then the other link I provided:

https://www.onlinefilefolder.com/2slHKjSEyLIEN9

 

[DJREEF]

If you don't have to clean the gravel bed this would be a plus IMHO. This is quite a switch for a reef tank bottom from using the finer sand mixes that we are used too.

This is what I was thinking. The less you have to mess with the substrate the better. Unfortunately, the only way to know when your source was exhausted would be to poke around in the sand. Then there's that whole mixing in fresh stock when you do have to replenish. I guess the other option would be to monitor your levels and mix in additional bps when needed. Maybe getting on a dosing schedule to maintain acceptable parameters.

DJ

 

[DJREEF]

This whole conversation is cracking me up - and here we thought the old school UGF was dead tech.

DJ

 

[Yogre]

This whole conversation is cracking me up - and here we thought the old school UGF was dead tech.

DJ

Don't let Paul B hear you say that... he's been running that RUGF for what, 40 years? :lmao: :lmao:

A couple of off-the-cuff possible objections... fine sand sifters may not go for the very coarse, almost gravel-like sand. And, there's the aesthetics... I ran gravel in my cichlid tanks and compared to sand, I much prefer the sand.

 

[TheFishMan65]

I was sort of thinking the same thing and waiting for bio balls to come up. For surface area you could try bio balls. I also skimmed the patent and I thought it said that better results were obtained with a higher than lower oxygen level. +1 for bio balls. Please tell me if I read the patent wrong.

[EDIT]
Yogre is that a +2 for bio balls

 

[jason2459]

Yeah, I don't know if PaulB would be proud or think we're crazy.

I'm up for trying anything including doing nothing.

 

[jason2459]

I was sort of thinking the same thing and waiting for bio balls to come up. For surface area you could try bio balls. I also skimmed the patent and I thought it said that better results were obtained with a higher than lower oxygen level. +1 for bio balls. Please tell me if I read the patent wrong.

There are those bioballs you can open up and add carbon. I suppose you could use those and put pellets in them. :bigeyes:

Also, I'm certainly not worried about oxygen levels with the current skimmer I have online, they will be high.

 

[TheFishMan65]

I am referring to this statement

"When using PCL granulated material, it was surprisingly shown that was just under aerobic operating conditions that a quicker, more effective nitrate reduction is obtained than under anaerobic conditions" - if I typed that right

 

[Yogre]

Maybe mix some bioballs in with the pellets, so you don't have to fish out the bioballs when the pellets are exhausted?

What's old, is new again!

Seriously though I need to read the patent to have an informed opinion... many thanks to HighlandReefer for posting the link! The science is much appreciated and in my mind makes this forum one of the best (if not THE best) on Reef Central.

 

[jason2459]

This will be interesting. The shapelock that I have is pretty much the size and shape of the PCL product that they are talking about. They are an oval type shape and about 3-4mm. Also, the dolomite gravel I'll be mixing it in is between 3-6mm. Mostly at the 5-6mm range.

So far from what I've read

- PCL round to oval at 4mm in size
- course substrate ~5mm in size
- Mix in to substrate around ever 6-12months
- flow is not required (I might turn off the RUGF for this then to start with)
- 60-120g of pellets to every 100l of water. (I'll have to check how many grams I have)
- can be difficult to apply in an established system
- should monitor nitrate levels at least once a month to make sure there is enough PCL product in use

...also talks about using PCL products in other ways in filter systems...


Benefits include reducing NH4+, NH3, and NO2- and also
1. stabilize carbonate hardness and indirectly pH value/range
2. release of CO2 through the oxidation of PCL
3. promotion of water plant growth
4. low to moderate reduction of phosphates


Also, looks like the end of the patent is how IO decided to create their product. Using a PCL powder to dose the system weekly. Could a person take their PCL pellets and just grind it up and do the same thing? According to this it is preferred to dose 20-80mg/l every week.

 

[DJREEF]

This will be interesting. The shapelock that I have is pretty much the size and shape of the PCL product that they are talking about. They are an oval type shape and about 3-4mm. Also, the dolomite gravel I'll be mixing it in is between 3-6mm. Mostly at the 5-6mm range.

So far from what I've read

- PCL round to oval at 4mm in size
- course substrate ~5mm in size
- Mix in to substrate around ever 6-12months
- flow is not required (I might turn off the RUGF for this then to start with)
- 60-120g of pellets to every 100l of water. (I'll have to check how many grams I have)
- can be difficult to apply in an established system
- should monitor nitrate levels at least once a month to make sure there is enough PCL product in use

...also talks about using PCL products in other ways in filter systems...


Benefits include reducing NH4+, NH3, and NO2- and also
1. stabilize carbonate hardness and indirectly pH value/range
2. release of CO2 through the oxidation of PCL
3. promotion of water plan growth
4. low to moderate reduction of phosphates


Also, looks like the end of the patent is how IO decided to create their product. Using a PCL powder to dose the system weekly. Could a person take their PCL pellets and just grind it up and do the same thing? According to this it is preferred to dose 20-80mg/l every week.

Make sure your PCL pellets are smaller than the accompanying substrate or they'll all end up sitting on top in time.

DJ

 

[izzy123]

aha, just when I was thinking about cancelling my subscription to this thread, it got interesting again........ :twitch:

very ineresting stuff .....

looking forward to the results

Ivan

 

[TheFishMan65]

Jason,
Maybe I missed it in the patent, but where did you see "3. promotion of water plant growth". I thought most people reported the plants (Cheato) dieing back.

Thanks

 

[AquariumSpecialty]

I have np biopellets running on a tank for about six months now. I started the tank with them. First 2 weeks I dosed mb7 until I ran out. It's a 40 breeder, 29g sump, TLF150 reactor filled about 1/3 full running on a mj1200.

The pellets still look the same way they came out of the bag, same size, same color. I have had undetectable nitrates but had to add GFO and a chaeto fuge to bring my nitrates down. I never noticed any bacterial bloom, and I don't see any stringy bacteria or anything like that.

Based on this would you say the pellets are working?

If so how can I get them to bring down the phosphates? Add more?
If they're not working, any suggestions how get them going?

anen, good questions and I posed them to NP Biopellets folks. This is what they had to say...I did a little editing but the message is the same.

"Since you have no detectable nitrates the pellets can't get the nitrates lower then 0. You say you are using GFO and cheatos to lower the nitrates, but that should be PO4?

When there is no nitrates, the numbers of bacteria will decrease. The number
of bacteria will be that low that they can't consume all the PO4. Since the bacteria population is low due to low nitrates) the pellets are not being consumed."

Hope this helps you understand more of what is going on in your particular aquarium...every aquarium is different and that is why some people are claiming that the product is not working while others are getting great results. If NO3 is very low as it is in your aquarium then the bacteria population on the pellets will also be very low and the carbon source will not be consumed as rapidly.

Thanks for the good question.

 

[HighlandReefer]

One thing to keep in mind when using bacteria to reduce nitrate and phosphate is that the ratio of reduction is usually somewhere between 10 to 1 up to 30 to 1 (IIRC) depending on the species of bacteria involved. That is the amount of nitrate removed compared to the amount of phosphate removed. Some species of bacteria will utilize organic P instead of of PHosphate (which is inorganic), which can throw this ratio out of whack regarding phosphate uptake.

So this means that little phosphate is removed compared to the amount of nitrate. If you have a situation where you have low nitrate and high phosphate, then using bacteria to remove the phosphate is not going to work. You will need to reduce the phosphate using for example a GFO product to get the balance into a proper proportion where perhaps the bacteria can maintain the levels. If the phosphate begins to rise and the nitrate stays at zero, this means that you are adding a lot of phosphate in your fish foods. In this situation reducing the amount of fish food, using low phosphate foods or using GFO properly may be your best way to go, in addition to using these biopellets.

 

[HighlandReefer]

FWIW, running GAC will remove the organic P that a skimmer can't remove. Organic P can brake down into inorganic phosphate. So running GAC is a good thing to do while using these biopellets as well as liquid carbon sources.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Another thing to keep in mind, is when phosphate levels get very low like when using GFO, there is still organic P in your water collumn from the fish foods added frequently. This means that bacterial populations can change since some bacteria are better at using oranic P than phosphate. Some bacteria can switch back & forth between orgnanic P and phosphate depending on what is available. This bacterial population change can result in rate changes that nitrate & phosphate is absorbed by the bacterial, then skimmed out. In some cases nitrate reduction can drop or increase depending on what bacteria are dominant.

This is perhaps one reason why cyano can become a problem, since cyano can use both organic P and phosphate.

The above is why each tank can be different regarding nitrate & phosphate reduction. The dominate species of bacteria involved will make a difference. In bacterial biofilms & masses you will find both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria which have different rates of nitrate & phosphate reduction. If you can see a biofilm of bacteria this is thick enough to have all the different kinds of bacteria in it which interact together as a whole to reduce the waste products found in reef tank water.

 

[jason2459]

Jason,
Maybe I missed it in the patent, but where did you see "3. promotion of water plant growth". I thought most people reported the plants (Cheato) dieing back.

Thanks

Page 6 section 6 has it in bullets. Plus its mentioned again in another section as well. I believe they mentioned using plants with a root system and with the PCL in the substrate.

 

[anen]

Thanks for the reply. I have a 40 breeder with a clown and three gobies. If I were to add more fish would this help increase nitrate enough to get the pellets going? if I consistently getzero nitrate this to pellets or other biological filtration?

anen, good questions and I posed them to NP Biopellets folks. This is what they had to say...I did a little editing but the message is the same.

"Since you have no detectable nitrates the pellets can't get the nitrates lower then 0. You say you are using GFO and cheatos to lower the nitrates, but that should be PO4?

When there is no nitrates, the numbers of bacteria will decrease. The number
of bacteria will be that low that they can't consume all the PO4. Since the bacteria population is low due to low nitrates) the pellets are not being consumed."

Hope this helps you understand more of what is going on in your particular aquarium...every aquarium is different and that is why some people are claiming that the product is not working while others are getting great results. If NO3 is very low as it is in your aquarium then the bacteria population on the pellets will also be very low and the carbon source will not be consumed as rapidly.

Thanks for the good question.