N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

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phos zero = doubt it

phos zero = doubt it

I believe you are telling the truth but I am not convinced your hanna meter is...I simply do not believe that the phos is at zero if your nitrates are that high.....

I would try a *different* hanna meter to be sure...I don't buy *zero* phosphate.....but again..that is only my opinion and I am not a pro....ORRRR double check your procedure with the testing.....is
there chance that error is being made??

Best of luck either way

Tim
 
However, I have a strong hint that there is a negative correlation between pH and carbon source over-dosing....

Organic carbon dosing always reduces pH, if that is what you mean. :)
Hi , Randy :)

-Should one be concerned if PH stays around 7.9 for longer periods of time in combo with some form of carbon dosing ?

greetingzz tntneon :)
 
Background & Theory:

The system of nitrate and phosphate reducing bio pellets represents the latest evolution of carbon dosing and is therefore sometimes referred to as solid-form carbon dosing. Aquariums employing carbon dosing have also been referred to as bacteria-driven systems, in that they rely on bacteria (bacterio-plankton) to reduce the inevitable end products of the nitrogen cycle and other metabolically produced nutrients... nitrates and phosphates!

Carbon dosing is based on the following:
"¢ All living things (perhaps excepting that bacteria recently found growing in arsenic) require four foundational nutrients in order to survive and thrive... to build their DNA structures. These nutrients are Oxygen (O); Phosphorus (P); Nitrogen (N); and Carbon (C);

"¢ These nutrients are utilized in fixed ratios specific to the subject life-form; for example, it has been referenced in this thread (by TMZ; Post No. 3066) that phytoplankton utilizes 106C:16N:1P; Oxygen was not referenced, but I would assume that it is utilized in a greater proportion than Carbon;

"¢ So in effect, what carbon dosing does is supply the C... and as would be expected from any properly functioning biological filtration system, bacteria will develop based on the availability of other required nutrients, namely N, taken from Nitrate (NO3); and P, taken from Phosphate (PO4). These along with Oxygen are available within your water column;

"¢ As bacteria assimilate all of these nutrients required for their growth, from the aquarium; formerly inaccessible nutrients (namely nitrates/phosphates) now become accessible as both skimmers, and activated carbon are very good at pulling organic compounds from the water column;

In the end, the function of a bacterial-driven filtration system can be summarized in this way: The aquarist provides an organic food source (ethanol; vinegar; sugar; and now bio-pellets); bacteria use nitrate; phosphate; and oxygen available in the water column to complete their basic requirements for growth; nitrates and phosphates are suddenly bound into an organic form that protein skimmers (and activated carbon) can grab a hold of; finally the protein skimmer pulls out copious amounts of bacterial mass which has captured N & P, thereby reducing nitrate levels and phosphate levels in the aquarium bulk water. The above is the basic principle for all forms of carbon dosing, not just biopellet filtration systems.

Liquid form carbon dosing involves supplying the carbon food source to the entire water column. As a result, organic carbon is available to the entire system - display tank and filters. The perceived drawback of which is that bacteria and other life forms are encouraged to develop throughout the aquarium system, and many believe liquid form carbon dosing can pose a higher risk of unsightly cyanobacteria, and other such blooms taking hold within their display.

In theory, the introduction of bio pellets (i.e. solid-form carbon dosing) adds increased control to the prior art of liquid/supplement based carbon dosing by confining the Carbon food source to an isolated area of the aquarium system, as opposed to distributing it throughout the entire water column.


Quick Reference:

"¢ Biopellets are actually biodegradable polymers "“ PLASTICS. The more common types of plastics are PHA "“ Polyhydroxyalkanoates and PCL "“ Polycaprolactone, however different manufacturers/suppliers are introducing their own biodegradable plastic formulas;

"¢ Most recent brands of biopellets are comprised of a smaller unit size. This like most other bio-dependent strategies is based on the understanding that the smaller the media in a given space, the larger the surface area available for bacteria;

"¢ Biopellets are best employed in fluidized reactors. Most media reactors can be retrofitted; however the success of the pellet system is reliant on evenly fluidized movement. If there are dead-spots in a reactor, or flow biased areas, the pellets will inevitably clump together in the areas of insufficient flow. Once the pellets begin to clump/stick to each other with bio-film, they will either float on-mass to the top of the reactor (clogging the outlet), or begin to smell unpleasant (anaerobically derived H2S).

"¢ Rather than having to keep an eye out for clumping; and consequently shaking up the media every few days, it is best to find a well fluidizing reactor. To this end, there are a number of new reactor designs reaching the market which employ conical bases; and more importantly, function without the use of sponges, which have been found to trap bacterial mulm rather than allowing it out of the reactor for removal (skimming) from the system water;

"¢ Flow of water through a biopellet reactor is a balance between maximizing media contact time, while eliminating the risk of clumping due to insufficient flow... i.e. if the reactor fluidizes beautifully, you can run just enough system water through to allow the pellets to fluidize evenly and thoroughly; if the reactor flow is uneven, your focus should be to ensure the weakest flow areas don't clump.

"¢ Most distributors will recommend an ideal volume of pellets per total aquarium volume; however it has been found that one should always start slowly (approx. ½ the recommended volume), especially when introducing the pellet system to an old or established tank. Over the course of a few weeks to a month, the amount of pellets can be gradually increased to the recommended running volume;

"¢ Because the pellets are a food source, and as such, will be consumed over time, one should expect to replace a quantity of digested pellets every few months or so depending on the rate of consumption;

"¢ The effluent from the pellet reactor should be directed as close to the skimmer intake as possible, but is best routed directly into the skimmer intake [100%]. This allows the skimmer first access to pulling out nitrate and phosphate laden bacteria before it gets a chance to circulate throughout the greater aquarium system. Inevitably, some of the bacteria will make it through the skimmer, and in theory, should become a bacterio-plankton food source for corals and other micro-fauna; and

"¢ .... it is normal course for the aquarium to become cloudy with a bacterial bloom upon initialization of the biopellet system. The bloom should run its course within a few days of operation. It has been reported that in those systems which do not employ a skimmer, the blooms will continue to reoccur.


Caveats:

Some cautionary notes are offered, but not limited, to the following:

"¢ Dropping nitrates and phosphates too abruptly will adversely affect corals, hence the strong recommendation to start with ½ the distributor recommended quantity;

"¢ The larger the bacteria population the greater the reductive effect on pH. Should you require a large volume of pellets, you must also have very strong oxygenation strategies in place: i.e. over-sized protein skimmer; rapid water movement; use of ozone in an under-sized skimmer; etc;

"¢ Keeping in mind that the four nutrients most heavily involved in this type of bio-filtration are Carbon; Nitrogen; Phosphorus; and OXYGEN, consideration of the last should be part and parcel of the implementation of this strategy. Otherwise, one will experience difficulty maintaining pH above 7.8 - 7.9 when large quantities of pellets are employed; which will have a detrimental effect on sps and lps corals, as they will have trouble gaining and retaining calcium required for their growth; and

"¢ The function of the entire system is limited by the availability of any of the required nutrients. That is: if there is no P "“ the reduction of N is stalled; if there is no N "“ the reduction of P is stalled; and if there is no C the reduction of both N and P will cease. As a result of this knowledge, as well as the normal course of phosphates being continually introduced with feeding and related activities, it is highly recommended that one continue to employ GFO or other phosphate reduction strategies even after nitrates successfully settle at 0ppm.

The above represents a high level summary of some of the thoughts and discussions surrounding the use of this relatively new bio-filtration strategy. The list is by no means complete as hobbyists continue to discover new refinements to the best usage practices advertised and established for the employment of bio-pellets. But if I were to give a short guideline for using this system, here it is:


1. Get a good fluidizing reactor;

2. Start with ½ the volume of pellets and ramp up over the course of the first month;

3. Route the pellet effluent through a good strong skimmer;

4. Super-saturate your system with oxygen in order to avoid the reductive effects of respirating micro-fauna;

5. Monitor the health of your livestock very closely throughout the implementation of any new husbandry practice!!


To add under the last section

6 In systems where reef rock has been exposed to large amounts of phosphates then it is possible for them to be coated with a paste of carbonates and phosphates. Initially, when the pellets are used it could lead to an outbreak of byropsis. This can be controlled by using a GFO media(eg phosban) along with the pellets but in separate reactors.
 
-Should one be concerned if PH stays around 7.9 for longer periods of time in combo with some form of carbon dosing ?

I wouldn't be overly concerned about pH 7.9, no. :)
 
These nutrients are utilized in fixed ratios specific to the subject life-form; for example, it has been referenced in this thread (by TMZ; Post No. 3066) that phytoplankton utilizes 106C:16N:1P; Oxygen was not referenced, but I would assume that it is utilized in a greater proportion than Carbon;

I do not agree that the above ratio (or any fixed ratio) applies to organic carbon dosing, where nitrate may be used a lot more than as a source of N for tissue building. It is also used to provide the oxygen in low O2 environments, like under biofilms on biopellets or inside of live sand or rock.
 
However, I have a strong hint that there is a negative correlation between pH and carbon source over-dosing....

Organic carbon dosing always reduces pH, if that is what you mean. :)

Randy - give that corals need a minimum level of pH to be able to calcify, do you have a view as to what we should target? This would enable a much better approach to dosing carbon sources? I guess the question is: is there an identified cliff in coral biology below which calcium assimilation is sub-optimal?
 
IMO, it may be better to be at pH 8.2 to 8.5 from a calcification standpoint for some corals, but many reef tanks do just fine down to pH 7.8. Below that I'd definitely take action as coral skeletons can begin to very slowly dissolve below pH 7.8. My current system runs pH 7.95 to pH 8.1 in the winter.
 
Can we clarify/summarize w/ your expertise pls...

Can we clarify/summarize w/ your expertise pls...

These nutrients are utilized in fixed ratios specific to the subject life-form; for example, it has been referenced in this thread (by TMZ; Post No. 3066) that phytoplankton utilizes 106C:16N:1P; Oxygen was not referenced, but I would assume that it is utilized in a greater proportion than Carbon;

I do not agree that the above ratio (or any fixed ratio) applies to organic carbon dosing, where nitrate may be used a lot more than as a source of N for tissue building. It is also used to provide the oxygen in low O2 environments, like under biofilms on biopellets or inside of live sand or rock.

Hey Randy - Nice to have your expertise on this thread. I agree with you in that there are several avenues along which N is used up. I'm certainly out of my expertise in the realm of chemistry and microbiology, and therefore greatly appreciate some direction from those more formerly trained in the respective disciplines. However, if I were to combine and distill all of the various conversations; written accounts; anecdotes; etc, that I've come across over the years, I would come up with the following:

  • Denitrification in a reef tank happens either by process of destruction (as you've described in that bacteria strips away the oxygen from nitrate leaving nitrogen gas) in anaerobic environments; or by process of assimilation (N used to build tissue/dna structures) in aerobic, and to a lesser extent anoxic environments;

    According to a conversation I once had with a nutritional scientist, anaerobic life is far less stable than aerobic, this is probably one of the reasons why Dr. Bob Goemans had written that anaerobic/destructive based denitrification is far less efficient than assimilation based denitrification (in his book describing benefits of the anoxic environment created by a Jaubert Plenum for instance)

    The processes of all forms of carbon dosing can therefore be said to accommodate all forms of denitrification: firstly by boosting bacterio-plankton populations; which then use all available nutrients in each of the respective O2 environments (abundance thru absence thereof) to survive as bacteria are so good at doing;

    So in a sense, we've been focusing on the assimilative aspects of carbon based denitrification (not to forget phosphate processing as well); where in fact the populations of bacteria instigated and maintained by our organic feeding is diverse enough to exploit all available environments present and created within the greater aquarium as well as the pellet reactors (anaerobic micro-environments encapsulated by aerobic bio-films said to form on each pellet); and finally

    I think the key point that is not emphasized nearly enough on this topic is that oxygen is a key player in this whole process in that if we consider the fundamental assimilative aspects of carbon dosing - i.e. the fundamental building blocks of tissue/dna: C, N, P, & Oxygen (the last of which probably being used in the greatest proportion); the pH consequence therefore becomes clear. Said another way, if there is a large population of respirating micro-fauna residing in a bp reactor, and throughout an entire aquarium system, the additional demand on O2 needs to be matched by more intense strategies of active O2 saturation so that pH doesn't wind up being the limiting factor regarding the successful implementation of this system.

In one particular system I look after, I was finding that once the pH was consistently below 7.9, calcium was no longer being absorbed by corals, infact they were probably giving Ca back to the water column, as even with the calc reactor off-line, my Ca levels continued to increase (or at least hover above 480-540ppm). In my case, I'm still looking for an efficient way bombard my system with more O2... now that my nitrates are no longer an issue I'm actually considering putting back some bio-balls for the benefits of aeration...

In any event Randy - I'm glad you were able to finally confirm the link b/w pH and carbon dosing in an 'authoritative' way... there's been alot of anecdotal table-tennis going on about it on this thread alone. Personally, I think those who've not had issues with pH while using carbon dosing have ginormous protein skimmers... but I want to experiment with a bio-tower first.. hey stop laughing youz guyz!!:bounce3:

Pls advise further (either confirm/refute) the above synoptic interpretations of this here bacteria babble... Thanks all.

Regards,

Sheldon
 
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Besides adding bio-balls, what other methods of adding O2 are viable? Don't laugh- I'm chemistry-challenged... I can only think of airstones and chopping up the surface with a powerhead (and bio-balls, which I don't have anywhere to put in my system).
 
Reef Octopus BR-70 Cone Reactor Question

Reef Octopus BR-70 Cone Reactor Question

I just received my reef octopus BR-70 cone reactor and am trying to pair it with a maxiJet 1200.

Question 1: does anyone else have this set up?

Question 2: how did you solve the small nozzle on the maxijet to connect to the larger nozzle on the input of the BR-70 reactor?
 
Boosting O2...

Boosting O2...

Besides adding bio-balls, what other methods of adding O2 are viable? Don't laugh- I'm chemistry-challenged... I can only think of airstones and chopping up the surface with a powerhead (and bio-balls, which I don't have anywhere to put in my system).

Ways that I'm aware of:

  • Aggressive flow and surface agitation (powerheads directed to the surface of DT and/or sump);

    Ozone (expensive & requires proper application);

    Large/oversized skimmer (probably the best option where possible); or

    Lots of splashing (broken up water) such as achieved by bio-balls

The idea is that you want to encourage as much gaseous exchange as possible. CO2 will leave the water and O2 will be infused. This is provided you don't have high ambient levels of CO2 that is.

SJ
 
I just received my reef octopus BR-70 cone reactor and am trying to pair it with a maxiJet 1200.

Question 1: does anyone else have this set up?

Question 2: how did you solve the small nozzle on the maxijet to connect to the larger nozzle on the input of the BR-70 reactor?

1. never used this type of reactor;

2. most cases, maxi-jet nozzles are up-sized using pieces of flex hose.. i.e. I think the 1/2" (13mm/15mm eheim tubing) fits the nozzle, then a 16/19 or 19/22 ehiem hose can can be fit over top of that; may also benefit from using cable-ties... but to answer your question: work it out with flex tubing.

SJ
 
Hi Sheldon and co

After only a couple of days without gfo, po4 is up to 10ppb and nitrates is 25ppm... Corals look much better. They were definitely P restricted. Lets see how these pellets work their wonder now!
 
Reef octopus BR-70 and maxijet 1200

Reef octopus BR-70 and maxijet 1200

I test drove my Reef Octopus BR-70 Reactor and a new Maxijet 1200. Looks like the maxijet is NOT powerful enought to turn 1/4 cup of pellets!

Here is the test set up
<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y0jzhlgpMZ_3R3NOsokijw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_NXpuq2m0IHc/TbDp0Eu1eeI/AAAAAAAADTs/WRGFvMBRTx4/s800/P1050434.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>

The pellets are clumping on the bottom and the top
<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YsDz06HMHy4pEtgYHHhRzg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_NXpuq2m0IHc/TbDp1SL46AI/AAAAAAAADTw/kH1TyT1CHZw/s800/P1050436.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/yRJvTXxQD3pkthUkLysg3Q?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_NXpuq2m0IHc/TbDp2z-KESI/AAAAAAAADT0/k0NMcHfhyK0/s800/P1050435.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6ApjUyRawrJzdbfvwpxdAA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_NXpuq2m0IHc/TbDqDX1-9vI/AAAAAAAADT8/HsBORcsqs4g/s800/P1050439.JPG" height="800" width="600" /></a>

The maxijet 1200 is too weak
<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Bd8eV87xhJsOYQzwpd8SqA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_NXpuq2m0IHc/TbDqLm2eMrI/AAAAAAAADUA/trU3VK1R_VI/s800/P1050440.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>
 
mag 3

mag 3

You might want to try a mag 3 or mag 5 and dial it back.

I just installed a BR-140 and am using a mag to run it and it works like a dream...I have to dial it back a fair amount however....

Those beads, if only freshly put in...will take 2 days to saturate and get
the air offfffff of them so they sink...then...you should see tumbling action
I would think from the MJ1200....gently shake the reactor side to side...and you will
see them begin to drop after a day or so.....keep doing it till all have dropped..then...see if you get tumbling action... I cannot remember your picture but it seemed like the hose from the MJ1200 was quite long? NOt sure if that length is giving you head length that is cutting down the flow rate of the MJ1200.....someone...can you comment on that? I have no idea...just guessing on that...


Are they new beads?

What pump does the MFG recommend? Check with them they will
be able to tell you some ideal pumps that are already working on
that reactor.

Good luck,

Mine works like a dream...so...once you get the proper flow your
gonna love that thing


Tim
 
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I test drove my Reef Octopus BR-70 Reactor and a new Maxijet 1200. Looks like the maxijet is NOT powerful enought to turn 1/4 cup of pellets!

Here is the test set up
<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y0jzhlgpMZ_3R3NOsokijw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_NXpuq2m0IHc/TbDp0Eu1eeI/AAAAAAAADTs/WRGFvMBRTx4/s800/P1050434.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>

I think the three 90 degree elbows in your setup would reduce your pump efficiency significantly. Can you eliminate the two elbow fittings and make it a straight line?
 
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