Need Advice - Thinking About Starting Over

[Patrick Cox]

I started my 100G aquarium in late January of this year with the hopes of ending up with a healthy primarily SPS reef. I started out with some beautiful Tampa Bay Saltwater Live rock with lots of life. I also decided to carbon dose with the Zeovit method. After my initial quick cycle due to the fresh live rock, I added a pair of clownfish and a couple other small fish to the tank. I also added a few corals from my old tank.

Fast forward just a bit, everything was going well until mid April when I decided to add a trio of small anthias. And in order to keep them alive I ended up having to feed lots of small particle food that I assume a good portion of ended up in my sandbed and on my rocks. And long story short, I have been battling brown hair algae since that time. I initially added a lot of snails in hopes they would help eat the algae. I also had a FoxFace that I had added a bit earlier but that fish would not touch this brown hair algae that is in my tank. (I wonder if the Zeovit additives have something to do with the type of algae that is growing and why that fish would not eat it. I thought they were good grazers.)

So I ended up removing the anthias (and Foxface) and cutting way back on my feeding. I have removed and scrubbed all of my rocks 3-4 times dating back to mid-May and every time the algae comes back. I am not sure what to do. My LPS corals look to be healthy and my SPS corals are mixed. And really at this point I am getting tired of dealing with the algae.

So my question is - should I start over?

If I started over I would likely remove all of the rock and order new fresh live rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater again because I really like that rock. I guess I would also replace the sand and then I am also considering moving away from Zeovit. I am fairly certain that the only reason I developed this amount of algae is because of the amount of food I was having to feed to keep the anthias alive. They would only eat small particles and obviously when you feed small particles there is a lot of uneaten food. And I certainly won't make that mistake again.

I do put a lot of time into my tank so neglect is not the issue. Here are some of those details...

Salinity - 1.025
Alk - 8
Mag - 1275-1335
Cal - 420
Nitrate - 0.0
Phosphate - 0.0
(Both Phosphate and Nitrate were higher when the initial algae broke out but I was able to get them down to zero but the algae keeps growing/coming back.)
9% weekly water changes
Running Zeovit
Life reef Skimmer
Good circulation
ATI T5 Fixture with ATI Bulbs

Here is a short timeline:

2/9 - Added Live Rock and Sand and Started Zeovit process
3/2 - Added clownfish pair and a few LPS corals from my old tank (cycle was easily complete.)
3/15 - Added FoxFace and a few SPS frags
4/1 - Added more SPS frags
4/15 - Added Anthias Trio
4/27 - Brown Fuzz/Hair algae quickly growing
5/17 - Removed Anthias and FoxFace and scrubbed rocks with 15% water change. (I removed the fish so I could cut back on feeding.)
5/18 to 7/16 - I have removed and scrubbed all rock at least 3 more times. And I am doing 9% water changes weekly.

Here are some pictures. Your advice would be appreciated.

March 19:

Late April:

Early May:

Today:

Things have certainly improved from the the worst but the algae just won't go away...

 

[Nanighan]

Try adding a small tang like a Kole tang. In my experience it eats everything. Also do you have some kind of competing algae for the nutrients such as chaeto or a turf scrubber?

 

[itz frank]

Honestly, IMO, the tank is very new and the algae is just part of the maturity process. I would just keep trucking along.

The first six months you can expect to go through stuff like this all the time.

My tank is 4 months old now since cycle. I've had diatoms, hair algae, and now cyano.

The cyano is believe is related to my T5 bulbs. But, I haven't changed anything and they come and go in stages.

I would just keep trucking along and don't get discouraged. I, personally, would add fish that eat algae. A tang is a great option. Lawnmower blenny. Basically, any fish that will eat algae. It's free food.

 

[SPotter]

Patrick, I would add more snails. 25-30 trochus snails will clean that up. A lot of that is part of a new tank. As far feeding anthias a lot...not necessary. I have over 20 in my tank and they get fed once a day with no issues. You could also try raising your mag with Kent tech m up to 1500.

 

[Patrick Cox]

OK, thanks all. I'll give it another 6 months. I will add some more snails and look into a small tang as well. I have had a Kole tang on my stocking list anyway. Hopefully it will eat the algae in my tank. Thanks.

 

[Piper27]

All of the above, but I didn't know raising mag with kent tech m would kill something other than bryopsis which this doesn't look like, but I could be wrong.

Add a good tang, use mexicn turbo snails and stop worrying because algae is a natural part of a reef tank

 

[chessmanmark]

Your tank just needs more time. It is always cycling and the longer you let it mature the better. When hobbyists first started keeping SPS some people used to say wait a year before introducing sticks. If you keep up on the maintenance you will see improvements over time. Good things do take time though so patience is your best asset.

 

[Bpb]

Definitely agree with the others. This algae bloom was bound to happen anthias or not, zeovit or not, Tampa bay rock or not. Regardless of how mature or live the rock may have been, in YOUR tank, any algae related issues should be really not fussed over if your tank is less than a year old. One critter in my tank that has absolutely destroyed algae in my tank has been the white pincushion urchins that come with the Tampa bay stuff often. This single urchin has some serious work. My tank is 3 years old so my algae isn't new tank algae. We are talking about the impossible to remove Brillo pad type red turf algae that cannot be scrubbed off, is too tough for snails and fish, and resistant against low nutrients. The urchin picks the rocks clean (of course it grows back but it keeps the rocks 75% totally clean constantly as it continues to grow and get eaten.


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[Peter Eichler]

Scrubbing the rocks is just keeping your tank unbalanced. You experienced a normal phase in the maturation of a tank and reacted in a way that would impeded that maturation. Also, dumping things in there with zeovit with minimal coral growth and not knowing exactly what the zeovit is doing is probably is doing more harm than good. You also added SPS too early IMO, especially since you were staring with live rock rather than dry rock.

My suggestion would be to go back to simpler methods, water changes, maintaining the big 3 and getting some good grazers while keeping PO4 and nitrates low but not undetectable. Let things regulate themselves a bit and don't chase numbers. If your nitrates start creeping up without zeovit consider getting a more modern skimmer.

Lastly, I wouldn't suggest a Ctenochaetus tang such as a kole. They're highly detritivores in addition to being herbivores and often prefer film type algaes. I find Zebrasoma tangs better at dealing with filamentous algae and smaller tanks such as yours. Don't go sailfin (too big), but perhaps a scopas or a yellow. Mexican turbo grazers are also a good choice as are cortez red leg hermits.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Also, your LPS don't really look great, they're not extended like healthy LPS would be, so they aren't particularly happy with the tank conditions, but are simply surviving better than the SPS.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Scrubbing the rocks is just keeping your tank unbalanced. You experienced a normal phase in the maturation of a tank and reacted in a way that would impeded that maturation. Also, dumping things in there with zeovit with minimal coral growth and not knowing exactly what the zeovit is doing is probably is doing more harm than good. You also added SPS too early IMO, especially since you were staring with live rock rather than dry rock.

My suggestion would be to go back to simpler methods, water changes, maintaining the big 3 and getting some good grazers while keeping PO4 and nitrates low but not undetectable. Let things regulate themselves a bit and don't chase numbers. If your nitrates start creeping up without zeovit consider getting a more modern skimmer.

Lastly, I wouldn't suggest a Ctenochaetus tang such as a kole. They're highly detritivores in addition to being herbivores and often prefer film type algaes. I find Zebrasoma tangs better at dealing with filamentous algae and smaller tanks such as yours. Don't go sailfin (too big), but perhaps a scopas or a yellow. Mexican turbo grazers are also a good choice as are cortez red leg hermits.

Thanks for your reply Peter. I appreciate your suggestions. If you don't mind, I'd like to comment a bit on your post and ask for your comments back...


1. Regarding my zeovit usage, I am only adding the bacteria and the bacteria food to my tank. I am not dosing any of the additional additives at this point. So I would say I am simply carbon dosing. Are you generally against carbon dosing?


2. And if I move away from carbon dosing, do you recommend GFO or other phosphate removers? I feel like I have had problems with GFO in my previous tank.


3. You say I should consider a "more modern skimmer." Can you elaborate on this comment? What am I missing with the Lifereef with Mazzei venturi injector? I did a lot of research before selecting a skimmer for this tank and I read many good comments/reviews about this type of skimmer. I would appreciate your thoughts.

I will seriously consider your other suggestions as well.

Again, many thanks.

Pat

 

[Peter Eichler]

Thanks for your reply Peter. I appreciate your suggestions. If you don't mind, I'd like to comment a bit on your post and ask for your comments back...


1. Regarding my zeovit usage, I am only adding the bacteria and the bacteria food to my tank. I am not dosing any of the additional additives at this point. So I would say I am simply carbon dosing. Are you generally against carbon dosing?


2. And if I move away from carbon dosing, do you recommend GFO or other phosphate removers? I feel like I have had problems with GFO in my previous tank.


3. You say I should consider a "more modern skimmer." Can you elaborate on this comment? What am I missing with the Lifereef with Mazzei venturi injector? I did a lot of research before selecting a skimmer for this tank and I read many good comments/reviews about this type of skimmer. I would appreciate your thoughts.

I will seriously consider your other suggestions as well.

Again, many thanks.

Pat

1.) I generally think carbon dosing is a bad idea, especially with new tanks that don't have a long established bacterial population. You're introducing something that isn't natural and doesn't normally occur at the levels that you'll see when carbon dosing. It's a very delicate balance between driving nutrients too low and harming corals and keeping nutrients at acceptably low levels, and very few people manage to find it and keep that balance long term. This is especially true of less experienced hobbyists.

2.) GFO can certainly cause issues, and there is no perfect PO4 control method. Chaetomorpha and other natural methods can help. Also, liberal use of GFO is generally safe as long as you keep and have detectable levels of PO4. Driving PO4 too low is VERY bad, and phosphorous an essential element for life and a lot of aquarists seem to forget that or not know it in the first place. Also, carbon dosing is a terrible way to control PO4 as you will often end up with dangerously low nitrogen levels and elevated phosphorous due to the redfield ratio and bacteria taking up more nitrogen than PO4. Dose nitrate and the opposite can happen with dangerously low PO4 levels. Bacterial populations and the compunds that influence them is something most aquarists are better off not messing with IMO.

3.) I'm "old school", and once upon a time the life reef skimmers were very good. I owner a couple along with their other products. They're built, but it's old technology and they simply don't work as well as some of the more modern designs. They also seem to have a cult like following of old school aquarists that speak the gospel of life reef and buy into the marketing spin on Lifereef's equally dated website. They require big pumps, are less consistent than the better needle wheel skimmers, less efficient, and draw less air than many of the more modern designs. All that said, you can have a great tank with a Lifereef skimmer, and many other older designs for that matter (downdraft, even air driven), and the skimmer may have nothing to do with your issues. If you decide to skip the carbon dosing, just keep an eye on what nitrates do. If they start rising above 20ppm and continue to rise from there and you can't naturally keep them from getting up there your skimmer isn't cutting it.

Lastly, you started with live rock, the curing process with that is much much longer than a month. No matter how well it is shipped there will be die-off for some months after adding it to a tank, this especially goes if you didn't take measure to remove things like sponges and barnacles that will often slowly die rot away over time in a closed system.

I hope that helps, good luck!

 

[Patrick Cox]

1.) I generally think carbon dosing is a bad idea, especially with new tanks that don't have a long established bacterial population. You're introducing something that isn't natural and doesn't normally occur at the levels that you'll see when carbon dosing. It's a very delicate balance between driving nutrients too low and harming corals and keeping nutrients at acceptably low levels, and very few people manage to find it and keep that balance long term. This is especially true of less experienced hobbyists.

2.) GFO can certainly cause issues, and there is no perfect PO4 control method. Chaetomorpha and other natural methods can help. Also, liberal use of GFO is generally safe as long as you keep and have detectable levels of PO4. Driving PO4 too low is VERY bad, and phosphorous an essential element for life and a lot of aquarists seem to forget that or not know it in the first place. Also, carbon dosing is a terrible way to control PO4 as you will often end up with dangerously low nitrogen levels and elevated phosphorous due to the redfield ratio and bacteria taking up more nitrogen than PO4. Dose nitrate and the opposite can happen with dangerously low PO4 levels. Bacterial populations and the compunds that influence them is something most aquarists are better off not messing with IMO.

3.) I'm "old school", and once upon a time the life reef skimmers were very good. I owner a couple along with their other products. They're built, but it's old technology and they simply don't work as well as some of the more modern designs. They also seem to have a cult like following of old school aquarists that speak the gospel of life reef and buy into the marketing spin on Lifereef's equally dated website. They require big pumps, are less consistent than the better needle wheel skimmers, less efficient, and draw less air than many of the more modern designs. All that said, you can have a great tank with a Lifereef skimmer, and many other older designs for that matter (downdraft, even air driven), and the skimmer may have nothing to do with your issues. If you decide to skip the carbon dosing, just keep an eye on what nitrates do. If they start rising above 20ppm and continue to rise from there and you can't naturally keep them from getting up there your skimmer isn't cutting it.

Lastly, you started with live rock, the curing process with that is much much longer than a month. No matter how well it is shipped there will be die-off for some months after adding it to a tank, this especially goes if you didn't take measure to remove things like sponges and barnacles that will often slowly die rot away over time in a closed system.

I hope that helps, good luck!

Thanks Peter! One more questions -

if I decide to move away from Carbon Dosing, what precautions should I take? As I said, I have been adding the Zeo bacteria and "bacteria food" since I started this tank in early Feb. I know you said watch nitrates. Any other advise or actions?

Thanks again!

 

[Piper27]

Definitely agree with the others. This algae bloom was bound to happen anthias or not, zeovit or not, Tampa bay rock or not. Regardless of how mature or live the rock may have been, in YOUR tank, any algae related issues should be really not fussed over if your tank is less than a year old. One critter in my tank that has absolutely destroyed algae in my tank has been the white pincushion urchins that come with the Tampa bay stuff often. This single urchin has some serious work. My tank is 3 years old so my algae isn't new tank algae. We are talking about the impossible to remove Brillo pad type red turf algae that cannot be scrubbed off, is too tough for snails and fish, and resistant against low nutrients. The urchin picks the rocks clean (of course it grows back but it keeps the rocks 75% totally clean constantly as it continues to grow and get eaten.


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True large Mexican turbo snails mow down red turf algae extremely well. They are the number one snail for it. Urchins work well too. I had rocks covered in it years ago and was about to trash the tank until I was told to put them in. Within two weeks it was almost spotless! It was a 6' long tank too. I always try and tell people to try these for their algae issues whatever they may be. The large sized Mexican turbos with the protective flap that covers their mouth area when flipped over are what I get. You will end up with only a couple in the end.

 

[Piper27]

I agree with Peter in that kole tangs aren't as good as zembrosas but still help and you won't have to pull out a large bully fish in a few years. Also red leg hermits are another good algae eater, but they get stuck in my acros so often I don't keep them anymore. I only keep snails now. Also agree with what he said about letting the tank mature, very well put.
Mazzei injected skimmers are great! As long as you are maintaining your air intake with flushes and cleanings every now and then your fine. I would say that the tank ratings are a little off but so is every other skimmer to some point. Skimmer choice boils down to preference imo. Unless your undersized or something, mazzei injectors have been proven and work very well, which I am sure you realize since you researched the topic before buying the skimmer. Which model do you have? I am currently running mazzei injectors and needlewheels on the same skimmer and it's really working well.
Peter I don't see how life reef skimmers don't work as well as any modern skimmer. Pump size, power draw, and things like have nothing to do with how well a skimmer works and consistency of mazzei injected skimmers is flawless as long as they are ran properly. As to the cult like following, nearly every skimmer on the market has a long thread with people pushing why it's the best product, so nothing different there. I would say their skimmer body could be updated but works fine. A wider body would do these skimmers s bit of good imo.

 

[Patrick Cox]

I agree with Peter in that kole tangs aren't as good as zembrosas but still help and you won't have to pull out a large bully fish in a few years. Also red leg hermits are another good algae eater, but they get stuck in my acros so often I don't keep them anymore. I only keep snails now. Also agree with what he said about letting the tank mature, very well put.
Mazzei injected skimmers are great! As long as you are maintaining your air intake with flushes and cleanings every now and then your fine. I would say that the tank ratings are a little off but so is every other skimmer to some point. Skimmer choice boils down to preference imo. Unless your undersized or something, mazzei injectors have been proven and work very well, which I am sure you realize since you researched the topic before buying the skimmer. Which model do you have? I am currently running mazzei injectors and needlewheels on the same skimmer and it's really working well.
Peter I don't see how life reef skimmers don't work as well as any modern skimmer. Pump size, power draw, and things like have nothing to do with how well a skimmer works and consistency of mazzei injected skimmers is flawless as long as they are ran properly. As to the cult like following, nearly every skimmer on the market has a long thread with people pushing why it's the best product, so nothing different there. I would say their skimmer body could be updated but works fine. A wider body would do these skimmers s bit of good imo.

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the comments.

I agree with you on hermits. I only have snails in my tank, other than the crabs that came with the rock. In fact, I was just able to catch a crab that was killing my goniopora polyps. To be honest, I never had any issues for several months and then when I reduced my feeding, I am guessing the crab got hungry and decided to go after the coral. Luckily I saw the crab on the goniopora one morning and pulled the whole coral out and the crab came out with it! Bye bye crab!:blown: Since everyone likes pictures....

I am hoping the goniopora recovers....

Right now I have 5-6 active Mexican turbo snails and then I probably have another 15-20 other snails. Do you think I need more? I have all of my acros in a frag rack so the turbo snails can easily get around.

Regarding the skimmer, I have an SVS3-29. It is a flanged skimmer that I had made as high as I could based on the size of my stand. The flange is 18" high and then you have the neck and the collection cup. I feel like it is pulling a lot nasties out. I have to wear a mask when I empty it! Here is a picture from this morning...

I am running a a Sycce Syncra 5 on the skimmer at 100%. It is supposed so put out 1300 GPH. Not sure if that is accurate or not.

Also I am not sure about cleaning the mazzei. I will need to look into that. I am sure Jeff sent me something about that.

Thanks again!

Pat

 

[Piper27]

That thing looks like it's running fine to me man Jeff says there is no maintenance on the injector because the humid air from the collection cup keeps out salt creep but that's not true. It does for a period of time though. Pull the line off and submerse it in the tank so it pulls through water to clean it every week or two, maybe less depending on your tank. Also skim will get sucked through there and clog up the air intake on the injector after time that's why I take mine apart and clean them a couple times a year. Careful not to loose the spring and ball check. You can tell if it was dirty because your baseline water level in the skimmer will rise after cleaning.
Ime the mazzei injectors produce bubbles that create much better skim than needle wheel skimmers. I like how fine the bubbles are and how the pressure pumps create a turbulent area in the chamber.

 

[Myka]

Just to reiterate what everyone else is saying and add my own little details...

The reason your N and P are zero is because the algae is consuming it out of the water column. Algae is good at cleaning water.

In your pictures I don't even see one member of your clean up crew. Ime, most people that are having algae issues don't have enough CUC. They won't solve the world's problems, but if you don't have enough then you're fighting an uphill battle. Imo the best CUC is a varied crew. If I had your 120-gallon tank I would stock CUC like this:

5 Mexican Turbo Snails
10 Banded Trochus Snails
15 Ring Cowries
15 Scarlet Hermits
15 Cerith Snails
1 Tiger Tail Cucumber
1 Pistol Shrimp

Let me explain. The Scarlet Hermits cost about double what any other hermit costs, but in the long run they are cheaper because they rarely prey on snails. Blue legs, red legs, all the other hermits will prey on snails and will eat a good number of them every year. Cerith Snails and Nassarius Snails are the most preyed upon by hermits. Scarlet Hermits will occasionally eat a snail, but for the most part they even leave the Ceriths and Nassarius alone. I don't use Nassarius since the combination of Scarlet Hermits and Cucumber/Pistol do the same thing. A cucumber will clean all the sand that you can't reach with a gravel vacuum - super, super handy. A pistol shrimp spends all day digging in the sand, and then all night, and then all day, and then...you get the picture. He turns the sand way better than any other critter. The more he turns it the less crap is stuck in it. The Tiger Pistols get pretty big, and they are my favorite. Ring Cowries and Trochus are both nocturnal, so you won't see them doing much. They can usually both right themselves if they fall on their backs, Turbos will get stuck on their backs and die so I don't buy many (Astraea will die too, and they fall on their backs constantly...ugh). This is a combo I use in most client tanks, and it works like a charm. Tried and true.

One other thing I'd like to comment on is that many people like to start right off the hop with a bunch of additives (such as Zeovit or whatever), and I don't find this to be a good idea in a squeaky new tank - especially carbon dosing or any type of liquid food additives. In a new tank I like to hit it with a shot of Prodibio Start Up to make sure the good bacteria counts are outweighing the bad bacteria, and I monitor the big three (Ca, alk, Mg) and dose them only if needed. I use carbon, and use GFO only if needed. I let the tank hum along like this until the corals start growing significantly and dosing big three has really picked up. At this point is when I will start using additives if wanted otherwise early trigger on the additives causes more grief than anything imo.

The only tanks I use carbon dosing on are new clients that have REALLY dirty tanks, and clients that regularly overfeed to the point I can't keep up. :lol: I see carbon dosing as a "treatment", not a "supplement".

I'd say for now, beef up your CUC, cut out all your dosing (except maybe add a bacteria product with no carbon dosing), just do waterchanges, and let it straighten itself out.

Good luck!

 

[itz frank]

I would actually agree with the comment above. 25 Snails in a 100gallon tank very light. I'd add about 15-20 per week until you see a decent dent in the algae issue.

Basically, what I think is happening, your tank is handling the nutrient levels appropriately but there isn't anything eating the algae that's doing it. This is your only issue.

I don't know if you want to stop Zeo or not. But you're not just dosing carbon. You're dosing healthy bacteria and the food that eats it. Stopping all together could have negative effects if you just stop cold turkey. I'd slowly wean off of it if you do stop.

But I dose BioDigest twice per month without the Bioptim and I'm super happy with the results.

Again, beef up your clean up crew is all i think you need.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Thanks again for the comments! They are all very helpful! I will go out today and buy some more snails and also consider adding a Tang, which I have had on my list anyway.

Regarding Zeovit/Carbon Dosing, my system is a 90 gallon net water volume system and I have up to this point been dosing at levels for a 75 net gallon system. So I think at this point I am going to drop that down to dosing for a 50 gallon system and see how that goes and then consider dropping further and/or even stopping. But I know I want to go slow with whatever I do.

Pat