Needle Wheel Impellers Destroy Plankton

[Charlene]

It has been alleged that needle wheel impellers harm plankton. Zeovit users are strongly cautioned not to use such skimmers and that doing so will potentially disrupt biological systems and negatively effecting their efforts. They suggest using a venturi skimmer with no needle/pin wheel or a beckett downdraft skimmer. I won't cite the links on their web site as I believe doing so is a violation of the forum rules here.

If users use needle wheel skimmers it is important to keep monitoring of potassium levels as it has been shown to become depleted more readily using such skimmers. Are filter socks also problematic? I would think they too would remove micro fauna.

Can anyone shed some light on this topic?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Timfish]

Well, I don't use either filter socks or skimmers but filter socks come in a range of pore sizes so it kinda depends on the size of the zooplankton species and the sock used.

 

[Charlene]

Here is the starting point. A thread on the zeovit forum titled: Dump the Needle Wheel! (there are many similar posts on this site and on other sites)

"I can't express enough how important it is to not run a needlwheel skimmer with zeovit you need to run a Venturi or Beckett kz style skimmer if your running an ulns or zeovit ime running Zeo for over 7 years it makes a huge huge difference you not only will dose less but you will experience better overall health and growth pe and less Sps loss
Run a venturi or kz skimmer and you will have amazing results!!"

Later another person references the link below:

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature


Nowhere in this link is the needle wheel mentioned. Is it possible the needle wheel can be doing some sort of damage to micro fauna? Are ultra low nutrient systems so starved for bacteria that it's easier to over skim? I would like to have some experts chime in?

Please can someone help me understand this?

 

[reefgeezer]

Sorry, I gotta ask... As far as plankton is concerned, what is the difference between smashing high velocity water into a beckett valve or smashing it with a needle wheel? For that matter, how come blasting plankton through the small opening of a venturi at high pressure & velocity isn't just as harmful?

 

[Charlene]

You got me? I have no idea. I am very new to zeovit and trying to figure it all out. Clearly some zeovit users and KZ believe needle wheel skimmers do affect or can affect the their corals and they discourage their use.

 

[billsreef]

Somehow I doubt there is enough plankton in most peoples tanks for that to make a difference. More likely the difference is in the efficiency of the skimmers, with the needle wheel skimmers simply overskimming an already nutrient starved system.

 

[alexx2208]

Somehow I doubt there is enough plankton in most peoples tanks for that to make a difference. More likely the difference is in the efficiency of the skimmers, with the needle wheel skimmers simply overskimming an already nutrient starved system.

I also doubt that there would be that much plankton in the water column that it would make a difference, but i also think that there shouldn't be that much plankton in the water, especially in a zeovit system, IMO atleast. I barely feed plankton, as I don't want a potential for any nitrate or phosphate increase in my ULNS system, I just stick to the zeovit additives and foods.

I could see some sort of injury(?) to the plankton going through a needle wheel skimmer pump, but that would also mean that there is a higher chance(than the plankton outside of the skimmer) that it will be skimmed out immediately...

 

[Charlene]

So is it some other reason? What is it about needle wheels?

 

[jedimasterben]

So is it some other reason? What is it about needle wheels?

KZ doesn't sell needle wheel skimmers, IMHO that's the basis they make the claims on.

 

[wildman926]

If pods can survive the skimmers in our systems, plankton is not even bothered by it....

 

[smatter]

So it's been my needle wheel this whole time that has prevented me from successfully keeping ahermatypic corals?

 

[Pastey]

Do they not sell them BECAUSE they damage phyto or do they say it damages phyto BECAUSE they don't sell them?

Follow the money....

 

[Charlene]

For the money they charge, it would be easy enough for them to commission a needle wheel skimmer if they choose. I would doubt that is the issue. I do believe something indeed is happening because the shear number of folks who post experiences on the zeovit forum and on other forums about this issue. I just was hoping someone could id what specifically the issue is. Be it excessive bacteria removal or some disruption to the nutrient chain something is occuring. It appears there is enough circumstantial evidence to point to a potential for harm that warrants some explanation.

 

[erndog1001]

I'm with billsreef. i seriously doubt there is enough plankton in your system(without regular additions) so that a needle wheel is going to make that much difference.
I think what is being observed instead is just the natural rise and fall of the population that is there. IMHumbleO

 

[alexx2208]

For the money they charge, it would be easy enough for them to commission a needle wheel skimmer if they choose. I would doubt that is the issue. I do believe something indeed is happening because the shear number of folks who post experiences on the zeovit forum and on other forums about this issue. I just was hoping someone could id what specifically the issue is. Be it excessive bacteria removal or some disruption to the nutrient chain something is occuring. It appears there is enough circumstantial evidence to point to a potential for harm that warrants some explanation.

Not to be negative with zeovit, as i am a user, but there are many things that you shouldnt question, because it just works. Ive had many questions on the forums, and only ONE has even been specifically answered, why they do not recommend GFO in a system. It took me about a week to shake it out of the members, and it only ended up being "because it may damage the sensitive corals you are keeping" Why wouldnt KZ just say that ahead of time? I dont know....

 

[Charlene]

Not to be negative with zeovit, as i am a user, but there are many things that you shouldnt question, because it just works. Ive had many questions on the forums, and only ONE has even been specifically answered, why they do not recommend GFO in a system. It took me about a week to shake it out of the members, and it only ended up being "because it may damage the sensitive corals you are keeping" Why wouldnt KZ just say that ahead of time? I dont know....

Agreed. It's clear sometimes they really don't want to talk about the science but instead try to keep the conversation centered on a specific KZ additive to address a specific problem. That said when I do use a product as intended I feel i will get results. The products are generally well designed. Kind of reminds me of the way the company Apple works. It's powerful branding and savy marketing of generally high quality products but it can be frustrating when for whatever reason you want to a better understanding of a problem you are trying to solve.

 

[billsreef]

It's clear sometimes they really don't want to talk about the science but instead try to keep the conversation centered on a specific KZ additive to address a specific problem.

It's a bit difficult to talk about the science of something without knowing what that something even is...beyond some marketing name

 

[rgulrich]

I've been trying to think of a way to respond to this thread, but I think you've "nailed it" - powerful branding and savvy marketing. One thing we should all ask ourselves when a manufacturer won't quickly, directly, and factually (with some sort of decent, preferably peer-reviewed research to back it up) respond to queries, is: what else aren't they being quite so forthright about?
It pays to be a skeptical consumer - even of products and product lines that show success - when questions go unanswered or are redirected.

 

[alexx2208]

I've been trying to think of a way to respond to this thread, but I think you've "nailed it" - powerful branding and savvy marketing. One thing we should all ask ourselves when a manufacturer won't quickly, directly, and factually (with some sort of decent, preferably peer-reviewed research to back it up) respond to queries, is: what else aren't they being quite so forthright about?It pays to be a skeptical consumer - even of products and product lines that show success - when questions go unanswered or are redirected.

I would question companies which offer very low priced products which havent been proven, or are very low quality, but not with Zeovit and KZ. Their products should not be questioned, as people who take the whole product line seriously and follow the instruxctions to the T, get results.

I agree that you should be skeptical, but with things like "if plankton and bacteria are killed by needle wheel skimmers", which frankly cant and wont be researched, its not something to say "well KZ is bad because they dont explain". They dont know, nor do the people who are dosing right and setting their tank up to their instructions, really care or see problems with it.

 

[billsreef]

I agree that you should be skeptical, but with things like "if plankton and bacteria are killed by needle wheel skimmers", which frankly cant and wont be researched,

Actually that is a rather easy experiment; if someone has the time, money for necessary supplies...including good microscopes and a counting cell.