New Angelfish- strange morph...

jmaneyapanda said:
John, this is hormonal drive and is directly involved in sexual selection. The sight of the other fish is not what causes the change, but the hormonal variation trigger by the other fishes presence. That is the cue, not the visual indication. This is my point. Bring it full circle back to the original fish in question, if stress from predation is the visual cue, what is the actual mechanism for lack of production of the lenin to make the spot? Is it hormonal? And if so, what hormone would only be produced by the appearance of a generalized "predator"? In the angelfish and clownfish comparison, the social interaction stimuliates an redorductive endocrine response, which causes the morphologic alteration.
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Okay good... so you agree on that... I am not arguing that the sight of the predator is what causes it... I'm just arguing that something is causing it related to that... so you agree social interaction and "other fishes presence" can stimulate a color change in angels, as happens with sexual dichromatism? Why is it now such a great jump that other social interactions and other fishes presence may trigger chromatic change?
 
copps said:
Okay good... so you agree on that... I am not arguing that the sight of the predator is what causes it... I'm just arguing that something is causing it related to that... so you agree social interaction and "other fishes presence" can stimulate a color change in angels, as happens with sexual dichromatism? Why is it now such a great jump that other social interactions and other fishes presence may trigger chromatic change?
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IMO, yes it is too far a leap of faith. The sexual drive of ALL animals is a greater force than anything imagineable. Even greater than my drive to pizza (although that is debatable). This, in conjuncture with the reasonably known pathway of hormonal maturity causes the morphological change you described in angels and clowns. However, cutting and pasting that onto this example in inapplicable, in my opinion. These are not cookie cutter metabolic pathways that are creating this change. They are specific.

Again, I know Im really asking for an answer that cant be given, but, what pathways is causing this reaction within the fish? In your angel case, I will argue that is is reproductive hormones that accelerate in the presence (or lack thereof) of the stimulatory fish. In your example, an adult of the same species. Would an adult personifer inhibit or speed the development of an imperator? In the angel in question, what is it? Adrenaline that is only produced in the presence of "predators" and only inhibits the ocelli? That is impossible for me to grasp or accept.
 
Jeremy Jeremy Jeremy... you started out by saying this wasn't possible... then you said it wasn't possible in teleostean fishes... then you said it is possible in teleosts but only based on sexual drive because that is a "greater force than anything imagineable". When your argument is proven wrong with examples, you just further refine your argument... I feel like if I referenced a paper titled, "Adaptive phenotypic plasticity in ocelli of the Indo-Pacific angelfish Pomacanthus xanthometopon in response to predator presence" you would then just argue the materials and methods the authors used just so you don't have to agree something is possible that you didn't think before... I am not arguing this is law, just that it's possible... Oh, and I believe the drive of a changing blueface angel to avoid predators is much greater than its sexual drive... sexual drive means nothing if you didn't have the drive as a youngster to evade predators...
 
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Guys,

I just wanted to through some observations out there even thought they don't exactly pertain the current discussion.

When talking about fish developing features at a young age and then having them disappear as they mature, such as the occeli on Dan's blueface. Several species of clownfish in the tomato complex develop two or three stripes as juvi only to have them disappear as they mature.

With that said I have tried adjusting some of these juvi enviroment to see if I can figure out what causes the tripes to disppear or not develop at all......obviously I had to much time on my hands at the time. :)

Temperature, food items, water chemistry, development time, none of these caused any changes with the stripes on these tomoato clownfish. But if I messed with the settlement of the larvae I could delay the stripes disappearing, not 100% of the time but maybe around 75%. A few other things could cause the stripping to remain or disappear quickly. An example of the striping disappearing quickly was have them settle in an enviroment with alot of rock and no anemone.

Just some thoughts and observations to add to this great discussion.

By the way, Jeremy that is a great and interesting fish. Please document it's development over the next year or so to see if/how it changes.

Dave
 
copps said:
Jeremy Jeremy Jeremy... you started out by saying this wasn't possible... then you said it wasn't possible in teleostean fishes... then you said it is possible in teleosts but only based on sexual drive because that is a "greater force than anything imagineable". When your argument is proven wrong with examples, you just further refine your argument... I feel like if I referenced a paper titled, "Adaptive phenotypic plasticity in ocelli of the Indo-Pacific angelfish Pomacanthus xanthometopon in response to predator presence" you would then just argue the materials and methods the authors used just so you don't have to agree something is possible that you didn't think before... I am not arguing this is law, just that it's possible... Oh, and I believe the drive of a changing blueface angel to avoid predators is much greater than its sexual drive... sexual drive means nothing if you didn't have the drive as a youngster to evade predators...
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John, I kinda take some exception to this statement. If anything, Ive understated my feelings, but if you feel I am just arguing for the sake of hearing my own voice, I wont waste anyone else time. I dont agree with the principles you are claiming, but its just my opinion. You know more on it than me.
 
Jeremy, I'm just ribbing you buddy... if we were having a beer together I'd punch you in the shoulder... don't read into it...:beer: There are way too few people fascinated by specimens like this for us to squabble... :)
 
jmaneyapanda said:
So, the fish will "grow" longer teeth in the presence of snails? Can it occur if housed in the same water column, but not exposed (ie- does the fish need to eat the snail)? What species is this? I'd like to read more about this. I am very curious as to the metabolic mechanism of this event. If the sight or smell of these snails causes an anatomical adjustment, I am amazed. If it is consumption, I would like to se if anyone has looked into other potential effects or causes (ie- excessive calcium or fatty liver deposits, or similar).
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jmaneyapanda,

The work on this is spread out all over, but the primary reserachers are Frans Witte and Les Kaufman. Here is an abstract from one study:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118911368/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

I have not actually seen this myself, so I can't say what the cues might be. I do have a record that some captive F6 fish of Platytaeniodes degeni (an oral sheller) were demonstrated to still be avid snail eaters, despite having been fed only standard aquarium fare for those generations, so the plasticity evidently does not include all fish in the group....

Jay
 
Update- this fish has lost most of its paleness, but still has unusal coloration, IMO. Unfortunately, it is also exceptionally shy. He is the best recent pic I could take where all the other camera hog fish werent clammering to get in the way. As you can see (in comparison to the original pic, as seen in the second frame). You can see the body has darkened, and the yellow in the tail and pectoals has also developed. However, in contrast, the yellow mask seems to be fading quickly. I do not believe a normal blueface would not have noticeable yellow masking by this point (of almost complete adult coloration). I have been trying for a better pic, but when he comes out the darned other pigs get in the way. I will keep trying.

IMG_3809.jpg


IMG_3648.jpg
 
Looks quite a bit darker than the original pic. AND HEY that is a nice pic! You are always saying how you can't take pics, but it looks like you learned!
 
See how much yellow mask he lost though? That baffles me. heres a couple more pics from trying to get the little guy. First, you gotta loves conspics. Second, my Gem tang- how tangs should look in our tanks (IMHO).

IMG_3813.jpg


IMG_3816.jpg
 
Yeah the yellow is almost gone from what I can see, and he just seems real "dusky" colored to me. Even the yellow on the posterior end looks darkened and not bright and I don't think it is the pic at all because the conspic, wrought iron, and personifer all seem to have normal yellow coloring.

Yes that conspic is sweet and that gem is awesome! Great job! Nothing urks me more than seeing some amazing SPS tank with a few fish and the token yellow tang that looks like it is starving with the bones showing. That gem looks like it was plucked out of the wild yesterday! Just like tangs you would see diving.
 
If you look behind the conspic in every pic, you can see who I was REALLY trying to get a pic of. My fish are ridiculous.
 
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