aninjaatemyshoe
New member
Uhuru, what is the consistency of the Ultra Min D? Does it form a gel, is it fairly viscous?
New Deodronephthya sp. study group?
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uhuru
New member
By itself, no, it is not very viscous, not like Ultra Pac is shortly after mixing. I didn't find Ultra Pac to be very viscous either when used in small concentrations and allowed to sit over night... upon initial mixing yes it was like a gel. I'm currently dosing 3-4 drops/day, not mixed with anything. I feed the dry foods separately.
Ultra min D is a fluorescent yellow color, could this be from vitamins? Aside from water, the main ingredient is listed as glucose monohydrate.
Ultra min D is a fluorescent yellow color, could this be from vitamins? Aside from water, the main ingredient is listed as glucose monohydrate.
aninjaatemyshoe
New member
The instructions from Fauna Marin about how to use this system are confusing and inconsistent. For one thing, they include the Ultra Life in the mix, which from what I can tell is for both improving the efficiency of a skimmer and as a delivery mechanism for nutrients to corals. They say to combine this with the Ultra Clam and the Ultra Sea Fan and add it next to a filter... So, is the idea to basically have it immediately removed from your system? Then, they have you apparently add the Ultra Min D separately. If it is not used to bind the food, how is it a replacement for Ultra Pac?
From what I can tell, Ultra Min D is just sugar, amino acids, and trace elements. It not like any artificial coral mucus I would envision. Coral mucus is comprised of polysaccharides, proteins, and lipids and acts as a food delivery mechanism for the heterotrophic regions of the reef. People have been dosing sugar (a.k.a. carbon dosing), AA's, and trace elements for a long time now. How is this system an improvement?
What particularly bothers me about the Fauna Marin system is that, as a commercial endeavor, they keep most of how it works (or supposedly works) on the hush hush. As hobbyists interested in improving the base of knowledge for how to care for these creatures, we are almost completely in the dark. They no doubt have been performing some amount of research into this, but whatever their findings (good or bad) we will never know. For instance, why did they discontinue Ultra Pac? They say that they have a replacement in Ultra Min D, but it doesn't add up. Instead, we are supposed to just accept what they advertise. In a hobby that has a glut of companies selling unnecessary additives at premium cost, I find it hard to be so trusting.
From what I can tell, Ultra Min D is just sugar, amino acids, and trace elements. It not like any artificial coral mucus I would envision. Coral mucus is comprised of polysaccharides, proteins, and lipids and acts as a food delivery mechanism for the heterotrophic regions of the reef. People have been dosing sugar (a.k.a. carbon dosing), AA's, and trace elements for a long time now. How is this system an improvement?
What particularly bothers me about the Fauna Marin system is that, as a commercial endeavor, they keep most of how it works (or supposedly works) on the hush hush. As hobbyists interested in improving the base of knowledge for how to care for these creatures, we are almost completely in the dark. They no doubt have been performing some amount of research into this, but whatever their findings (good or bad) we will never know. For instance, why did they discontinue Ultra Pac? They say that they have a replacement in Ultra Min D, but it doesn't add up. Instead, we are supposed to just accept what they advertise. In a hobby that has a glut of companies selling unnecessary additives at premium cost, I find it hard to be so trusting.
uhuru
New member
The ingredients are exactly the same as Ultra Min S, but they are sold for different applications, and the color looks completely different (Ultra Min S is brown, Ultra Min D is yellow). There must be something different that they aren't sharing, and I hope its not just food coloring.
I was initially told that Ultra Pac was discontinued and being reworked for a new improved release. This was AFTER Ultra Min D was already released. It was only recently that Ultra Min D was being marketed as a replacement for Ultra Pac. I'm going to ask about this in their forum.
I was initially told that Ultra Pac was discontinued and being reworked for a new improved release. This was AFTER Ultra Min D was already released. It was only recently that Ultra Min D was being marketed as a replacement for Ultra Pac. I'm going to ask about this in their forum.
New to the thread, I just converted a sulphur reactor on my 45g tank (36"x 12") to a phyto reactor that I have set to drip at night. Next I would like to introduce a culture of perhaps rotifers and copepods to the tank. The tank is sans sump, aquaC remora powered by a mag 7. I have a school of lyretail antias I feed 2x a day frozen mysis and plankton.
I plan on dealing with the nitrates (now that my sulphur reactor is gone) via vodka dosing (just started microbackter to get things rolling). I had a ton of bacteria white stinky sludge in the sulphur reactor I cleaned out and am considering dosing some of it to the tank, but for fear of toxic crap from the suphur beads.
Inverts, I have 1 Dendronephthya (tuff word), Scleronephthya (another doosie), zoas, rics, derasa, and whats a tank without gsp. Tank is lit by 2 t5 actinic and 1 96w 50/50 pc.
Flow is provided for by a cl blueline velocity 4. I have a huge culture of phyto going on (DT's multiplied by 20 gallons) aside from the aforementionned phyto reactor set underneath the tank which is also on a closed loop feed. Also have some rotifeast and oysterfeast in my fridge. I also culture artemia about once a week.
With all that said, I am hopeful with Dendros, they are such beautiful corals. My main issue is heat. My tank shuts down the cl at 81, and I need to find some cheap fans to hook up to the lip of the tank. With the winter I should be okay, but come the summer I am thinking either a chiller (very quiet), a fan cooled pump on the closed loop, or transferring all of the photosynthetic organisms in this tank to reduce light heat, and just turn the lights on for display hours.
So aside from the heat issues, I would appreciate a recommendation for a live regenerating pod food I can keep in my hang on fuge where the phyto reactor output drips.
Oh finally, I dose Lanthanum chloride into my skimmer every so often. I definitely see it get skimmed out because the skimmate smells horrible, it is very light, and starts bubbling as soon as I inject it into the skimmer column. I am sure some makes it out to the tank, but a gfo reactor is not feasible, to much other stuff going on in my sumpless display. Okay time to goto sleep.
I plan on dealing with the nitrates (now that my sulphur reactor is gone) via vodka dosing (just started microbackter to get things rolling). I had a ton of bacteria white stinky sludge in the sulphur reactor I cleaned out and am considering dosing some of it to the tank, but for fear of toxic crap from the suphur beads.
Inverts, I have 1 Dendronephthya (tuff word), Scleronephthya (another doosie), zoas, rics, derasa, and whats a tank without gsp. Tank is lit by 2 t5 actinic and 1 96w 50/50 pc.
Flow is provided for by a cl blueline velocity 4. I have a huge culture of phyto going on (DT's multiplied by 20 gallons) aside from the aforementionned phyto reactor set underneath the tank which is also on a closed loop feed. Also have some rotifeast and oysterfeast in my fridge. I also culture artemia about once a week.
With all that said, I am hopeful with Dendros, they are such beautiful corals. My main issue is heat. My tank shuts down the cl at 81, and I need to find some cheap fans to hook up to the lip of the tank. With the winter I should be okay, but come the summer I am thinking either a chiller (very quiet), a fan cooled pump on the closed loop, or transferring all of the photosynthetic organisms in this tank to reduce light heat, and just turn the lights on for display hours.
So aside from the heat issues, I would appreciate a recommendation for a live regenerating pod food I can keep in my hang on fuge where the phyto reactor output drips.
Oh finally, I dose Lanthanum chloride into my skimmer every so often. I definitely see it get skimmed out because the skimmate smells horrible, it is very light, and starts bubbling as soon as I inject it into the skimmer column. I am sure some makes it out to the tank, but a gfo reactor is not feasible, to much other stuff going on in my sumpless display. Okay time to goto sleep.
I never really got the logic behind a phyto reactor. Phyto needs a F/2 nutrient mix to be nutritious (miracle grow, etc are very poor nutrient sources and even worse to introduce to ones tank) and a reactor will dump that back into the tank causing worse problems then that of simply adding phyto.
I'd suggest reading up on how much phyto rotifers need. the water itself will need to look nearly as green as a phyto culture.
I'd suggest reading up on how much phyto rotifers need. the water itself will need to look nearly as green as a phyto culture.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
Well, the adventure finally begins.
Well, the adventure finally begins.
I got four good sized dendros shipped to me today. After a few hours, one of them (pink) is just barely standing up on its own. The second (purple) has two thirds just standing. The other two Purple and yellow) are pretty deflated.
I have high hopes for them. If any one has advice on acclimation and the short run care of these guys, please chime in.
Formulating the right food as an experiment is a big risk. I'll see if it helps.
Well, the adventure finally begins.
I got four good sized dendros shipped to me today. After a few hours, one of them (pink) is just barely standing up on its own. The second (purple) has two thirds just standing. The other two Purple and yellow) are pretty deflated.
I have high hopes for them. If any one has advice on acclimation and the short run care of these guys, please chime in.
Formulating the right food as an experiment is a big risk. I'll see if it helps.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
They are laying out, in an arching fashion. The branches are not shriveled. They all have a bit of a pump. Some just can't stand. The polyps look like they are open.
Maivortex
New member
You need to have the minimum amount of nutrients to sustain growth and still not intoduce any nutrients into the tank. phyto does not need high concentrations to grow. Cyano grows in reef tanks with no detectable levels of PO4 or N so why not create a culture in this way.
I think that the n&p from my tank will be totally sufficient for the culture. I wouldn't add anything to the culture, although I have been toying with the idea of hooking up a CO2 tank. I wouldn't need to dose any more than goes into a calcium reactor to get exteme growth.
Cyanobacteria is nothing you'd want to feed to NPS corals so I am unsure why you brought that to this discussion. Now if you could say that about Tet, pav, TW, Iso, etc then it might have a bearing on this discussion.
Sustainable growth and nutritional value are widely different and a poor nutritional value phyto is pretty much useless to the animals we want to feed.
The company I work for is the worlds largest producer of marine phytoplakton well, behind mother nature of course. The nutrient requirement of phyto is well documented. This is based on producing phyto with the best possible nutritional value. You do not want this nutrient media (F/2) in your reef tank. This is why companies like us remove it prior to selling it to our customers globally.
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The standard of phytoplankton production is Guillard's F/2 medium. You can view what the make up is using CCMP's website: http://marine.rutgers.edu/ebme/html_docs/f2-MediaRecipes.htm
Stock solution:
NaNO3,
NaH2PO4.H2O
Na2SiO3.9H2O
Trace Metal solution
Vitamin solution
Trace Metal Solution
FeCl3.6H2O _(iron)*
Na2EDTA.2H2O
CuSO4.5H2O (copper)*
Na2MoO4.2H2O
ZnSO4.7H2O (zinc)*
CoCl2.6H2O (cobalt)*
MnCl2.4H2O (Manganese)*
Vitamin Solution
Vitamin B12
Biotin
Thiamine HCl
* I added the common names just so people could see what they are.
If your doing a diatom you'll want to add silica to the solution as well.
Now before some one tries to call me out that I am just trying to get people to use our product and not grow it themselves, or do the reactor method, I've long held the same thought about phyto reactors prior to working for the company I do now. I'm not one to allow heavy metals to knowingly enter my aquariums, well, besides what little I dose of manganese and iron to my fuge
Stock solution:
NaNO3,
NaH2PO4.H2O
Na2SiO3.9H2O
Trace Metal solution
Vitamin solution
Trace Metal Solution
FeCl3.6H2O _(iron)*
Na2EDTA.2H2O
CuSO4.5H2O (copper)*
Na2MoO4.2H2O
ZnSO4.7H2O (zinc)*
CoCl2.6H2O (cobalt)*
MnCl2.4H2O (Manganese)*
Vitamin Solution
Vitamin B12
Biotin
Thiamine HCl
* I added the common names just so people could see what they are.
If your doing a diatom you'll want to add silica to the solution as well.
Now before some one tries to call me out that I am just trying to get people to use our product and not grow it themselves, or do the reactor method, I've long held the same thought about phyto reactors prior to working for the company I do now. I'm not one to allow heavy metals to knowingly enter my aquariums, well, besides what little I dose of manganese and iron to my fuge
I did not realize I was replying to an expert in the phyto field. Some questions if I may. Is there any practical way for a hobbiest culturing phyto to remove the nutrient media after phyto growth. In my cultures I use miracle grow. Also I guess you are saying a phyto reactor hooked up to a cl fed on a display will not be provided with sufficient nutrients to grow if f2 or miracle grow equivalent are not added? Is there a minimum amount of f2 or miracle grow to add to a culture (i.e. ml/gallon) to sustain growth? Would CO2 connected to a reactor obviate, or even lessen the need for nutrients. Thank you Gresham.
aninjaatemyshoe
New member
If you bought a centrifuge off of eBay, you would be able to significantly reduce the nutrient media by concentrating the phyto and decanting off the growth media (ie. make a phyto paste). Or, you could try to find an appropriate filter paper and filter funnel that will collect the phyto and allow the water and media to pass through. The former would be pretty expensive, but fairly easy to do. The latter would be cheaper, but difficult to implement, more time consuming, and you would probably want to do it under refrigeration.
In the end, I don't think you'd really be saving much money, seeing as products like Shellfish Diet are pretty cheap for what you get (not to mention it includes a blend of phyto instead of just one species). Certainly, it would be a lot of work and hassle for limited reward.
In the end, I don't think you'd really be saving much money, seeing as products like Shellfish Diet are pretty cheap for what you get (not to mention it includes a blend of phyto instead of just one species). Certainly, it would be a lot of work and hassle for limited reward.
I'm not an phyto expert by any means but I do work with Phycologists and I guess I'm a bit more informed ont he subject then most reefers :lol:
aninjaaremyshoe hit it square on the head... a centrifuge is the best way, or a transdential (sp?) flow filter or even some filter media that can filter down to 1 micron. All methods require human hands and can't be automated to feed your aquarium on it's own.
Miracle Grow is no substitute for F/2. It's formulated for terrestrial plants and does not have the vitamins and trace metals that phyto need and what it does have is in the wrong amounts. It will grow phyto but that phyto will by no means live up to it's true potential. Phyto needs F/2 in a certain concentration and that is nothing you'd want to toss in your aquarium as it will no doubt result in negative things
CO2 is widely used for growing phyto in large volumes as it really helps knock down the PH amongst other benefits. Unfortunately it's no substitute for F/2 or amount of F/2.
This is why the reactors have always been an oddity for me. Back in 99 I got into phyto feeding and tried every available source. I found only one wouldn't give me huge nuisance algae outbreaks so I looked into why that was. At the time only two removed the F/2 media and of those two one was grown a few cities over from me. I spoke with the owners, got the down low and the rest is history
aninjaaremyshoe hit it square on the head... a centrifuge is the best way, or a transdential (sp?) flow filter or even some filter media that can filter down to 1 micron. All methods require human hands and can't be automated to feed your aquarium on it's own.
Miracle Grow is no substitute for F/2. It's formulated for terrestrial plants and does not have the vitamins and trace metals that phyto need and what it does have is in the wrong amounts. It will grow phyto but that phyto will by no means live up to it's true potential. Phyto needs F/2 in a certain concentration and that is nothing you'd want to toss in your aquarium as it will no doubt result in negative things
CO2 is widely used for growing phyto in large volumes as it really helps knock down the PH amongst other benefits. Unfortunately it's no substitute for F/2 or amount of F/2.
This is why the reactors have always been an oddity for me. Back in 99 I got into phyto feeding and tried every available source. I found only one wouldn't give me huge nuisance algae outbreaks so I looked into why that was. At the time only two removed the F/2 media and of those two one was grown a few cities over from me. I spoke with the owners, got the down low and the rest is history
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
Three Days Old
Three Days Old
These are my new (dendros/not). They are only three days old. I have been moving them around and changing the water flow to get them to pump. The best one was moved to the worst place and it does not like it. The other three look happier. This is not the best picture. In addition to the picture, check out this Youtube film for a better tour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCX4opCa6hE
My questions are:
1. How pumped are these things. Slightly, partially, kinda, fully "¦.what?
2. What are they called?
Three Days Old
These are my new (dendros/not). They are only three days old. I have been moving them around and changing the water flow to get them to pump. The best one was moved to the worst place and it does not like it. The other three look happier. This is not the best picture. In addition to the picture, check out this Youtube film for a better tour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCX4opCa6hE
My questions are:
1. How pumped are these things. Slightly, partially, kinda, fully "¦.what?
2. What are they called?
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herring_fish
Crazy Designer
Thanks,
How much light do they like, a lot of a little?
How much light do they like, a lot of a little?
