New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

I believe that when you see two organisms occupying the same niche it is because they are taking advantage of different foods available. If they were competing for food, one or the other would dominate.

Yeah, I had thought about that aspect too. I know there are instances where 2 organisms may be located in the same area and feed on completely different food sources, so they dont compete with eachother. At the same time, I know of situations where there is simply such an abundance of a particular type of food that several species that feed on the same prey items are able to coexist. I mostly just HOPE that this case will be the second situation- lol.
 
aguabeast said:
Ive been asked several times if the corals will react poorly to such lighting, but in my experience, and with the research Ive found, they shouldnt care that much about intense lighting,

That's your opinion - the corals themselves might disagree with you. After all - why should corals care about temperature?

Maybe light is like temperature. Too much temperature - and they die. So too much light - and they die. Maybe they need to be kept in utter black to survive.

aguabeast said:
Do these guesses seem reasonable?

Nothing that hasn't been tried before, by many other people. Over and over again. Too much "in the box" to have much hope.

Ask yourself: What is keeping <i>Deodronephthya sp.</i> from taking over the entire ocean? And maybe it's not something that we're lacking, but something we have that is giving us such an exceptionally consistant success rate with them. I mean even with Goniapora (sp) there are isolated pockets of success.
 
Nothing that hasn't been tried before, by many other people. Over and over again. Too much "in the box" to have much hope.

Cant try what nobody knows to do- any positive suggestions?
 
Dendronephthya in my sump died. But it took an awfully long time, around 3 months solid. That sucker was, like I said, nearly a foot tall! Stayed inflated most of the times. Spicules still fell off, but it didn't deflate completely. Thing sways a lot, but not directly because of the current, it just likes to sway. The expansion was so great, I could see the tissues in between the spicules on the branches look translucent.
 
There was also a new baby colony at the base. This one also had a drastically fast rate of growth and expansion. Within that time frame, it went from 1/4" to almost 3/4" tall.
 
aguabeast said:
Cant try what nobody knows to do- any positive suggestions?

Total blackout conditions.
Water temps in the low 70's.
Water movement in excess of 12" / second
Overfeed a lit tank causing permanent 24x7 algae / cyanobateria bloom conditions. ** See below.

Or for a more useful approach:
Split a tank in two so you have a test area and control. See which causes them to die faster:
-- Add fertilizer to one side. High N / P conditions? ** Tie in to above
-- Connect up one side so water from a normal reef tank flows through it versus isolated.
-- Well lighted and blackout
-- Warm and cool temps
-- Water exposed to air, water covered.

The issue is not imagination, but will and perseverance. Like Edison and his light bulb - with years of trail and error ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ I think that the path to success will be finding out what kills them and not doing it anymore. I'm morally bankrupt enough to know what the road to hell is paved with, and know that all I'll ever contribute is good intentions. But if one was looking for a useful role: replicating the observations already made for confirmation would be useful. Like Dr.(?) Matthews, if you post your observations / results here I'll be lurking with interest.
 
Aaron- I am sure they don't mind light. They have been observed growing in full sunlight in Philippine aquaculture fish cages, where the fish are heavily fed. I don't see a difference in my tanks. Watch the algae, though- practically, you havae to be able to turn off the lights to control algae, I think.

I think some of the benthic creatures slightly irritate some polyps, so I was considering a Rainfordi myself. Any polyp piocking activity noted?

I have been squeezing a sponge on and off for over a year. I have been working with various materials. The coarser materials such as DLS produce larger floc. I like the large sponges that go on the aquaclear filters- I am now using five in a 120, lifted out of the water twice daily. I have very vigorous sponge growth, but I'm feedling lots of other things too, including dosing silica.

I wonder about liquifying macroalgae- you know about caulerpacin? they do contain chloroplasts, etc. I think the dendros like the epiphytic matter better- at least they respond to it. there are diatoms and others there-

Regarding species sorting, theysort to food as well as space. The dendros project out, the sponges don't. But I don think that allows the dendros to get first shot at larger particles.

Nick- I have a seven tank setup interconnected, all for dendros and related organisms. Currently one is a sump, and five are experimental refugia. I keep all animals in the same tank (expect for the sea apple and cucumber). I ahve a large skimmer Beckett injected, but as I feed oils (fish oil on the freeze dried food for the Tubastrea) the skimmer produces very little. I havae one 29 gallon Chaetomorpha and sine sand refugium under intense PC lighting 24 hours/day; one 75 with 8 Southdown sand under 4 t5 tubes right over the surface and I have torn out the Caulerpa and replaced it with Chaetomorpha; one 120 cryptic which I think has been useless and I have taken out the algae scrubber and will light with 4 PC tubes and will probably add Chaetomorpha too; and a 120 gallon with MH lights (250 and 400 very blue) that are kept off recently to suppress algae. I have about a dozed dendros in there.

Nick- Keep that residual baby dendro! Exactly how did that dendro die?

Charles
 
Nice to see progress with these creatures. It has always bugged me to hear folks make statments that they "should be left in the ocean"

Certainly no one should try them without properly researching and being prepared to experiment.

On the otherhand people pretty much said we would never keep Acropora sp. in tanks 25 years ago.

So much for the soap box.

Mainly I wanted to ask if anyone has considered Prochlorococcus sp. as potential food sources for these and other aposymbiotic corals?

It appears they are a hot topic in marine ecology (and ecology across the board)

http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Biorealm/bacteria/prochlorococcus/prochlorococcus.htm
 
I think some of the benthic creatures slightly irritate some polyps, so I was considering a Rainfordi myself. Any polyp piocking activity noted?

Charles~

Ive not had any issues with any of the fish bothering the corals. All of the dendros are suspended in an open cave- the Rainfordi rarely, if ever, ventures that high up in the tank unless its feeding time. I was a little concerned with the angels- the Potters moreso than the Watanabei, but they seem to be leaving everything alone just fine, as are the cardinals and pipefish.

Another basic question- general consensus is that these corals tend to do best hanging. 2 of the pieces I received were not attached to a rock/base. Ive had some issues with them falling, as its difficult to secure them since they inflate and deflate so often. Im leary to attach them as I would any other soft coral (toothpicks through the base, thread, etc) because Im unsure of how they will react (and I know that with several octocorals, punctures or cuts in the wrong spot may disrupt the vascular system and destroy the corals ability to inflate itself- not sure if this is the case with Dendros). Anyone have suggestions, or am I worrying about it more than need be?
 
put in the bottom of the tank on course sand for a few days it will attach itself to the substrate even a small rock will work just lay it against it and it will attach itself then glue the sand to a small rock and attach the small rock where you want it.
 
I am very happy with all of the participants in this thread, and grateful for your interest. As you know, I am attempting to get this thread moved to our own forum, if enough interest can be generated. I expect that consistsent effort by us over the next five years will generate a significant advancement in reef keeping, as well as understanding of marine ecology. I expect we will all be very happy with what we have accomplished as we look back from the year 2010.

Regarding the astute comment on Prochlorocosus/synechococcus, indeed they are very interesting creatures. I think the reasons they were misssed were significant in terms of assessing what we know- it is very easy to miss little bugs, and in general I can find little information on nonmotile eukaryotes below 50U. Energy budget estimations would suggest that the eggs and reproductive forms should outnumber the adult forms over 100u, which are typically counted in plankton net trawls. Assessments of "zooplankton uptake" for dendros in the literature used 100U mesh. I just don't know enough about these creatures. Although I doubt lack of Synechococcus is the problem, I don't know. Synechococcus can be cultured. Time will tell.

Regarding "hanging" dendros, it depends on the type. At least two types reported by Wilkins arrive on import with their holdfasts fixed in gravel. They obviously root in gravel in the upright position, and the book by Fabricius shows them growing in this position in the wild. Others, particularly the fine polyped colored varieties, come in on rocks and appear to be oriented on a vertical surface. Benayahu and Fabricius report that these forms grow best on artificial vertical surfaces, projecting out into the current- such as on oil derricks in the Red Sea or on shipwrecks. Growth here can average greater than one polyp/day on a 5-25 polyp frag!

Mary's comments and experience are invaluable. I agree that many will attach in gravel. I also have mine attach in coarse gravel, and then transfer. Affixing a larger one is a problem! I had great success putting the base down a PVC pipe. Within a few weeks I pulled them out, and the tiny holdfast fragments on the PVC pipe were saved. They are now sprouting new polyps. Interestingly, the snow white one I had left behind red new polyps. Be patient- if there is any dendro tissue on a surface, that may be your very best grower- so good that I am considering fragging some new imports down to the holdfasts and regrowing them.

I have found they do not mind rubber bands. You don't even have to try to affix the base- just rubber band the middle. It looks funny byut will rearrange after awhile. I suspect this may be a better long term method. You can rubber band to a PVC pipe and then lean it up against the glass in the upper 1/3 of the tank. When it attaches to the glass you might be able to detach the supporting PVC and "plant" other areas by moving the PVC. I am working on this now, suspect but don't know that it will work. I can get atachment of small fragments to glass, don't know how well they will stick as they grow.

I was contemplating how voarcious my Tubastrea are. I literally feed each polyp two or three times daily. Given how quickly phyto cleaars, we may just be short on food.

Two recent observations- I am almost sure that live phyto acts very differently around a skimmer, and very little is taken up. anyone else notice this difference from paste? I asked Eric borneman about it, and he thinks this may be right. We need to test this more carefully.

Another thought about skimmers. As I feed oily foods to the Tubastrea so frequiently, my skimmer doesn't skim. It may be that the skimmer issue becomes moot. As we feed sufficiently, the skimmer stops working anyway. I am using extermely intensely lit refugia with Chaetomorpha and iron supplementation and geting excellent nutrient removal. That method may be necessary for filter feeders, since the refugia deals better with iol than a skimmer. Interesting thought.

Charles
 
I had a rock that had 2 large dendros on it. one fell off during the night right after I got it. I super glued it to a large rock (about fist size) and it has never detached.
but I only glued the very bottom surface and was careful not to let the glue touch the sides of the dendro.
 
Charles,

My hat's off to you for setting the tone of this thread in a productive and conscientious way.

While I can't contribute significantly to the husbandry of Dendros from a practical application perspective, I have to agree that an "aposymbiotic species forum" would be awesome! I've had great success in the past with Black and "Sunny" (orange, pink, red) Tubastrea sp. and am as eager to share information on them as any of the SPS I have kept...

Reading this thread got a few neurons reignited that hadn't fired in a while, and I am curious to hear feedback on them:

1) Flow isn't a matter of moving the entire volume of your tank... for a novel way to measure flow, feed zooplankton by dropping a baster-full into your sump at the intake end of your main circulation pump. Notice that on the display side you will have exit velocities from your return plumbing that will be quite impressive in the vicinity of the outlet, but that will diminish rapidly over the length of your tank. Forcing the same GPM through a smaller pipe will increase the pressure, and also the exit velocity of the flow up to the appreciable limit of the pipe you're using. So, moving the entire volume of a 100G tank at 3" per second may be 200X turnover, moving the volume that is exiting from a .5-1.5" PVC pipe 12"/s isn't unrealistic with a high-end pressure rated pump (think about the jets in a Jacuzzi if you need a better visual.)

2) As an avid diver, you had better believe that the temps at 30-40m (where many unbelievably large Dendros are photographed)are going to be significantly lower than the 80+ deg F at which most captive reefs are maintained. In most bodies of water there is an appreciable thermocline shallower than that... so, it would make sense that Dendros like cooler temps -- which would in turn, presumably, would also lower their metabolic rate.

3) On the subject of depth... has anyone (in the broad scientific community, as well as the RC community) done research on pressure and Dendro survivability? In other words, has anyone ever kept a Dendro tank in a hyperbaric chamber? I'm not a marine- or micro-biologist, but I would have to belive that the increased pressure exerted at even 20m could have an effect on biology of an organism that is adapted to thrive at 2, 3, or even 4 atmospheres of pressure. So removing that pressure to might be a bad thing, no?

4) On that note, could dissolved nitrogen (or other gases) be one of the elements lacking for Dendro survival? The human body's ability to deal with dissolved gas uptake at depth is one of the limiting factors to surviving deep dives... Or, on the flip side, could dissolved Nitrogen/Oxygen levels be significantly different (toxic?) at surface pressures?

Again, thank you for a wonderful read on this thread. I hope to be able to contribute anecdotes on this subject from my own tanks in the not too distant future.

--Sean--

PS -- Charles, can we see pics of your seven tank system?
 
Sean

Thanks for your support for a possible forum dendro study group!

Regarding pressure, I don't know of any studies. Many are found close to the surface and don't particularly seem to require depth. There are a few really deepwater nephtheids which are detailed in the book by Fabricius and appear to be distinct species of many types.

Your comments on flow are certainly correct. I have done flow experiments in aquariums for years. It's a real problem both for measuring flow and creating it. Dendros like laminar current. It's almost impossible to get this from a traditional powerhead. If you put your hand in front of a powerhead you will notice the extremely constricted flow directly in front, and then "dead" spots immediately outside the stream. You can put a regular powerhead aimed at a dendro three feet away, and perhaps that will do for that spot. Dendros do not like surge or alternating flow; they orient their polyps efficiently, and then once adapted like to be left to feed.

By far the best solution for me has been the Turbelle Strean pumps. I use a 5000 gal/hour pump aimed down the middle, and toward the bottom of the tank; I also have 2000 gallons/hour of additional circulation pumps (Tunze Classic and Aquaclear 1000 gal/hr) plus about 5oo gal/hour circulation back to the refugias, all in a 120 gallon. I aim for 6 inches/second measured by particle movement at the dendro surface. I use a magnifying glass for counting particle movement.

Could you tell us about your experiences- tank setup, feeding, flow, how long they lived and how they died, frag experience, etc?
 
Sean-

Regarding photos, I now have a digital camera and am about to start trying photography. I have the computer skills of a chimpanzee. I plan to start keeping photographic records of observations for a book on dendro husbandry. Any help would be appreciated! I plan to take my first photos this weekend

Charles
 
Charles,

As I mentioned, I have kept Tubastrea with great success. I'd be happy to post a few photos. All of them perished in a tank crash caused by a power outage/tank controller malfunction after 18 months in my tank. It was heart breaking.

I'd be happy to detail my husbandry of them, and show some growth photos if that is of interest.

If you want some help with photos, please let me know. I like working on Photos in Photoshop almost as much as I like browsing reefcentral for intellectually stimulating threads, so I'd be happy to help. PM me if you would like some assistance, and I can help you through cropping/resizing/posting/etc.

--SM--
 
Thanks, SM! I will be contacting you shortly as I expect to quickly become hopeless regarding photos.

Regarding Tubastrea- I am feeding mine by hand once or twice daily (actually tweezers). I keep mine on top of the Aquaclear powerhead (the big one ?960 GPH) so it is accessible to the open top aquarium. I feed it krill soaked in Omega-3 oil and a vitamin pill. The oil and fragments are blown downstream and across the dendros, which respond well as part of the daily or twice daily feeding regimen. Of course, the nutrient problem is significant- the skimmer collapses, and basically the refugia are carrying the load (adequately, presently). I imnitially had some tissue recession until starting hand feeding. I also feed golden pearls 5-50 microns (although the particles clump and are pratically bigger). I am getting very good return of tissue- they are getting fat as pigs.

I suspect that the dendro aquarium of the future will contain a basket for frags, including Tubastrea, which will be accessible to target feeding and will flow out to the main tank. I hope they wil spawn. My substrate is macromedia (1 inch rubble four inches deep) and crawling with isopods, so small ones may make it.

I went back and confirmed my purhcase time- most of my dendros are now 7 months old. I am keeping a careful journal. There are two types of dendros- the good ones and the bad ones- the bad ones come in on rock and have small polyps, the good ones on gravel and have larger polyps. Scleros and Neospongodes are also easy in my aquarium. All specimens are growing as evidenced by inflated size, and polyp count of frags. I guess I have about fifteen individuals, several larger sponges of various colors growing spontaneously (many more small ones), several frags. The bright purple on rock is failing, although two frags appear healthy at seven months without significant growth. A new mized color is feeding well; a new red polyp on white is more tentative. I really think this aquarium will be filled with white dendros and scleros over the next year- they seem very healthy and adding tissue and bulk- but we will see. They've been moved a number of times to optimize their feeding response, and I think they are very happy now.
 
pch90265 said:



2) As an avid diver, you had better believe that the temps at 30-40m (where many unbelievably large Dendros are photographed)are going to be significantly lower than the 80+ deg F at which most captive reefs are maintained. In most bodies of water there is an appreciable thermocline shallower than that... so, it would make sense that Dendros like cooler temps -- which would in turn, presumably, would also lower their metabolic rate.



HI

I am a diver myself and a marine scientist. The general experience with barophiles (pressure-dependent organisms) is, that pressure only matters if organisms come from deeper than a few thousand meters, so nothing to worry about for Dendros.
I saw a barophilic response from organisms in a sediment sample from Guaymas Basin, about 2000 m deep. The metabolic rate measured after pressurization to in situ pressure was significantly higher than at atmospheric pressure.
There is one observation that may have to do with a barophilic response, that is in a tank a friend of mine is taking care of. It is a large showtank in a bank in Germany, which is 6.3 m (ca. 19 ft) high. Some plate forming hard corals like Montipora or Echinopora make plates that are much thicker than in normal tanks. This may also have to do with the lighting, the tank hasa 18kW Metal Halides.

Cheers


Jens
 
So far this thread is great, some of the things people have come up with to present food various foods blows my mind, like using a sponge and squeezing to introduce food to the system. To date my imagination is limited by my experince in the hobby.

I'd like to report back on my use of DT's to start a phyto culture. It didnt work. It never really got much greener than how it started. I will add that it didnt crash either. I've now started a new culture using Florida Farms culture disk, what a difference, the culture started off greener than my experiment with DT's ever got.
 
Reporting something interesting- I have tried target feeding my 7 month old white dendros with the smallest golden pearls and oyster eggs. I shake them up in a jar and administer with a syringe and air line.

I see polyp feeding, and the pharyngeal area looks full. They sure look stuffed.

However, they are not expanding 36 hours after this. They puff up a little, but the polyps stay tight.

I am thinking about the Widdig paper on pharyngeal block. Perhaps they are still digesting. I hope so, anyway.

By the way, the technique seems much better for Tubastrea. I had been hand feeding them, which of course of laborious. But simply squirting a cloud of golden pearls onto Tubastrea results in the polyps puffing up as if they were stuffed. It looks to me like the way to do it for Tubastrea. And of course it works in inaccessible places when you use a long rigid airline tube on a syringe.
 
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