New Deodronephthya sp. study group?
- Thread starter charles matthews
- Start date
charles matthews
New member
I was meditating on Jens Kallmeyer's recent observation about the bristle worms. My first reaction was that these were incidental participants in the demise from other causes.
I have a "shocking pink" dendro that is about six months old now, and has been in gradual decline after a period of early growth. It's in my heavily fed 29 gallon tank plumbed into the 450 gallon multisystem. I decided to look in the middle of the night for any crawlies of interest.
I found a FIVE INCH bristle worm draped over the dendro like it was the Garden of Eden. Of most importance, however, was that this worm is SHOCKING PINK- even down to the bristles. When I attempted to remove it, it disappeared into a hole in the rock. This rock is a 4 inch piece that contains a four inch dendro and a small colony. The larger one is in greater decline, but the colony doesn't look as good either. The piece is strapped to eggcrate about eight inches off the floor (I did this to prevent irritation from amphipods at night, which may also be occurring). I am convinced that this pink worm obtained its color from sucking juices from the dendro, or perhaps doing something within the rock to pull gastric contents from the dendro. The huge size (the only one in the tank greater than 1 inch) and matching color, I think, are diagnostic.
I think this may explain why dendros do so much better on artificial surfaces- oil derricks, PVC. They may well be less hospitable to boring worms. Also, the presence of hungry predators for worms and such, may be a big factor in some successes. Mary, what fish are you keeping? And does anyone have suggestions as to what will eat a 5 inch pink bristle worm, besides a sea turtle maybe? I doubt he will trap-
I am thinking of putting a Rainfordi in there, and keep hungry ones in all my dendro tanks in the future- as well as use artificial surfaces high in the tank.
I have a "shocking pink" dendro that is about six months old now, and has been in gradual decline after a period of early growth. It's in my heavily fed 29 gallon tank plumbed into the 450 gallon multisystem. I decided to look in the middle of the night for any crawlies of interest.
I found a FIVE INCH bristle worm draped over the dendro like it was the Garden of Eden. Of most importance, however, was that this worm is SHOCKING PINK- even down to the bristles. When I attempted to remove it, it disappeared into a hole in the rock. This rock is a 4 inch piece that contains a four inch dendro and a small colony. The larger one is in greater decline, but the colony doesn't look as good either. The piece is strapped to eggcrate about eight inches off the floor (I did this to prevent irritation from amphipods at night, which may also be occurring). I am convinced that this pink worm obtained its color from sucking juices from the dendro, or perhaps doing something within the rock to pull gastric contents from the dendro. The huge size (the only one in the tank greater than 1 inch) and matching color, I think, are diagnostic.
I think this may explain why dendros do so much better on artificial surfaces- oil derricks, PVC. They may well be less hospitable to boring worms. Also, the presence of hungry predators for worms and such, may be a big factor in some successes. Mary, what fish are you keeping? And does anyone have suggestions as to what will eat a 5 inch pink bristle worm, besides a sea turtle maybe? I doubt he will trap-
I am thinking of putting a Rainfordi in there, and keep hungry ones in all my dendro tanks in the future- as well as use artificial surfaces high in the tank.
sammy33
Member
Charles-
This may be the reason that many are having unexplainable troubles with some corals...stealthy predators. I see many posts to the effect - "I have a coral that is not doing well but my water parameters are perfect".
I had thought of adding a Yellow Coris Wrasse (Halichoeres chrysus) to my propagation tank for that very reason. "It will eat fireworms and pyramidellid snails, protecting corals and clams. In addition, it may eat feather dusters, wild shrimp, tubeworms, and flatworms. It may also eat parasites off of tank mates." These are fairly peaceful fish and can even be kept in groups.
I realized another interesting point about these fish is that they also like to hide/dig in the sand. This may help to naturally accomplish Peter Wilkens technique of sand stirring for feeding Dendro's.
luvstns726
New member
The yellow coris wrasse digging behavior is an interesting idea. I had thought of using engineer gobies for this- but that may be "too much".
luvstns726
New member
I am really interested in hearing from Mary about the phytoplankton situation over the three years she has been keeping dendros. She is feeding DT's occasionally- by which I am guesesing maybe a few times a week (amount?)- but if she if just putting in a dose a few times a week, which clears in a few hours or so, than my conclusion is that they are not living on phyto supplements. If in addition, she does not have significant diatoms on the rocks or wheel that are being put into the water- if her silicates are low, if there is no significant growth on the glass- then I believe we can forget phyto. This would be a huge clarification.
Peter Wilkins related to Anthony Calfo that he has kept colonies now for seven years (!). Tragically, this scientific achievement has not been documented in the literature (and for the life of my, I don;t understand why...) According to his account in his book, he was (is?) feeding zooplankton substitutes and stirring sand- and using "perfect skimming". No phyto additions- but we don't know about diatoms in his tank, nor do we know how often he is stirring presently, although his book at one point said "once a week"- not enough to sustain obligate feeders.
With Tubastrea, I have to target feed DAILY or they quickly waste away. It will be important to establish what sort of phyto/diatom growth is present in Mary's tank, and in that of Peter Wilkins. Or- are sand diggers present and constantly resuspending diatom growth.
I am hoping Mary will allow me to interview her and publish an article on her remarkable three year experience with dendros, where we look at these possibilities carefully.
Peter Wilkins related to Anthony Calfo that he has kept colonies now for seven years (!). Tragically, this scientific achievement has not been documented in the literature (and for the life of my, I don;t understand why...) According to his account in his book, he was (is?) feeding zooplankton substitutes and stirring sand- and using "perfect skimming". No phyto additions- but we don't know about diatoms in his tank, nor do we know how often he is stirring presently, although his book at one point said "once a week"- not enough to sustain obligate feeders.
With Tubastrea, I have to target feed DAILY or they quickly waste away. It will be important to establish what sort of phyto/diatom growth is present in Mary's tank, and in that of Peter Wilkins. Or- are sand diggers present and constantly resuspending diatom growth.
I am hoping Mary will allow me to interview her and publish an article on her remarkable three year experience with dendros, where we look at these possibilities carefully.
tinyreef
New member
i'm not sure i would agree on this. based upon fabricus's findings, dendronephthya hemprichi (probably the most common species) is a phytoplanktivore and not a significant zooplanktivore. (fabricus, genin, and benayahu, 1995) later studies by her colleagues also seem to point to that (indirectly).
the statement that these azooxanthellae-type corals dominate the unlit areas but feed on phytoplankton seems contradictory. but from my readings of their publications, it seems to be presented as a question of specialization rather than direct contact/opportunity-feeding. the dendros simply cannot compete in the zooxanthellae-dominated zone (photosynthetic) because they never adapted themselves to be symbiont-hosts. so instead they chose to dominate the unlit areas where zooanthellae-types fare poorly and developed to feed on available phyto raining down upon them (benayahu and oren, 1996) or via the available currents. (fabricus et al., 1995)
i still think the "trick" is still in the phytoplankton side of the equation and not the zooplankton side, at least not directly. they might not be living completely on the phyto supps but perhaps a mixture of that and later "system-generated phyto". i.e. a darkened tank fed only dt's or similar may not support dendros but one that's lit and fed dt's or similar may.
charles matthews
New member
Regarding above- you're not up to speed on the literature yet. There has been considerable controversy about the methods of Fabricius; Wittig et al. looked at labeled absorption rather than capture, and the phytoplankton thesis can no longer be claimed as accepted.
I have read these papers many, many times; and have summarized them previously. I would be interested in your thoughts about Wittig's paper. From my reading, we still don't have a clue, and there are many deficiencies in the existing literature. That's my point about getting excited over long term success in aquariums- we may have experimental evidence here that Fabricius doesn't have. The two long term successes (over one year documented)- Mary and Wilkins- neither used significant phyto supplements; endogenous generation of phyto is still unclear, but in the absence of unusual diatom growth or other substrate appearance difference, I take this as evidence that Wittig was correct in his conclusion that phytoplankton plays at most a small role in their energy budgets.
Mary, what do you think?
I have read these papers many, many times; and have summarized them previously. I would be interested in your thoughts about Wittig's paper. From my reading, we still don't have a clue, and there are many deficiencies in the existing literature. That's my point about getting excited over long term success in aquariums- we may have experimental evidence here that Fabricius doesn't have. The two long term successes (over one year documented)- Mary and Wilkins- neither used significant phyto supplements; endogenous generation of phyto is still unclear, but in the absence of unusual diatom growth or other substrate appearance difference, I take this as evidence that Wittig was correct in his conclusion that phytoplankton plays at most a small role in their energy budgets.
Mary, what do you think?
sammy33
Member
Mary-
There is absoutely no pressure on you whatsoever. We are all patiently awaiting your input (and hopefully pictures).
:bigeyes:
**************************************************
I can...at this point...only speculate at what may promote long term survival of non-photosynthetic Neptheids. I have not kept any of these corals but have much experience with others. I offered a few ideas for hungry Dendros (in this thread) with heavy feeding fish (Anthias) and natural sand stirrers (Yellow Coris Wrasse) ala Wilkens sand stirring (see my previous posts).
I believe that feeding a reef with phyto will support the zooplankton that may support both vegetarian or carnivorous corals. Zooplankton additions will certainly not hurt as we seek to support all reef life. Both tinyreef and luvstns726 may be right?
So my point is...I have absolutely no idea. :smokin:
I do know that of all the corals in the ocean the carnation or cauliflower (Dendronepthya sp.) corals are some of the most beautiful and (unfortunately) the most challenging to keep in captivity.
Hmm? :reading:
There is absoutely no pressure on you whatsoever. We are all patiently awaiting your input (and hopefully pictures).
:bigeyes:
**************************************************
I can...at this point...only speculate at what may promote long term survival of non-photosynthetic Neptheids. I have not kept any of these corals but have much experience with others. I offered a few ideas for hungry Dendros (in this thread) with heavy feeding fish (Anthias) and natural sand stirrers (Yellow Coris Wrasse) ala Wilkens sand stirring (see my previous posts).
I believe that feeding a reef with phyto will support the zooplankton that may support both vegetarian or carnivorous corals. Zooplankton additions will certainly not hurt as we seek to support all reef life. Both tinyreef and luvstns726 may be right?
So my point is...I have absolutely no idea. :smokin:
I do know that of all the corals in the ocean the carnation or cauliflower (Dendronepthya sp.) corals are some of the most beautiful and (unfortunately) the most challenging to keep in captivity.
Hmm? :reading:
mcox33
New member
Okay guys I am going to answer the questions I printed out the other day. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you but I am just to busy these days to think straight.
I cheated, and quoted, So I can add the answers in without having to take time to type the question as well. However,I am taking out all the quote information. This is the questions posted by Charles Matthews.
Mary, are you still without substrate?
I do actually have some sand, in the tank. It is mostly blown back into the rocks, where it isn't seen and there is very little of it. The only place you can see it, is in the center, where the rock work is more open.
How often are you feeding?
The last several months, my husband has been feeding the Fish once per day (several frozen cubes, 1 each of mysis, brine, spirilina brine for the Yellow Tang, and usually Ocean Plankton or something like that.) These are all dropped into the tank straight from the freezer, where they float around and the pair of clowns Percula(Nemo Variety) eat from them, then as they get in front of the powerheads they get broken up, and move throughout the tank. That is when, the other fish start to eat on them. This way everybody gets some.
I occassionally feed the coral, but not very often anymore, due to lights always being off by the time I get home. It is very hard to feed a dark tank.
Are you SURE they are taking baby brine shrimp? Any pictures?
Yes. I am positive that they catch and hold onto small brine shrimp occassionally and several if i actually target the B shrimp to them. After a few minutes the shrimps are gone.
As for pictures, no there are not any at this time, as I only just recently acquired a camera that was good enough to allow those kind of shots. But I will try to get some as soon as I can.
How often do you blast the rocks?
I use to blast the rocks several times a day. But then I built this really awesome light setup and it became a real chore to move it. Mainly, because I end up, almost letting it slid to the floor, because I don't always get it pushed straight back. Then I have to get my husband to come help me put it back (he is hard to wake up in the middle of the night and really doesn't appreciate it either. LOL)
So now it gets done, when I have to be in the tank for something else, and I think about it before the top gets put back in place.
How often do you change water, and how much?
I do a water change only when the nitrates build, about every 6-9 months (Please Don't Yell at Me!) That is what seems to work for my tank, to often seems to screw it up. I change about 13 gallons at a time.
How often do you feed DT's or other algal product?
Not sure what DT's are, but if it is the brown powder or some sort of green liquid my brother got, (he gave some to me,) when he bought a 180 gallon setup complete, then I feed them, when I remember that I have them. The same as the ZooMax and cyclopeeze. Usually at the same time mixed into the stuff I mix up that one of local experts formulated. I just add it to the final liquid.
How long exactly have you kept your specimens now?
I got them for my Birthday in April of 2004, If I remember correctly. Plus I cheated and went back and found my original post on when I got them. (found on page 1, I think it was about half way down.)
What do you think about an interview and article? We would need pictures of your entire setup- refugium, closeups of the appearance of the rocks and surfaces and the dendros.
If, you all, really want an interview and article, then I will do it as soon as I can find the time. I can start getting pictures of the equipment and system together over the next few weeks. But first I probably should reformat my computer as it is not working so well of late. Long process first I have to stop taking pictures. I keep burning them to disk but by the time I get finished I am to tired to reformat then I take more pictures LOL.
But I will be doing that in the next week or so out of necessity.
Then I will start taking the pictures. I now have the Digital Canon Rebel XT with some deceit macro lens. plus the add on macro's. I was at my LFS today playing with the different lens I got yesterday. (practice lol)
Right now I am fighting with HAIR ALGEA, and don't want any pictures of my tank taken. But it is on the decline. Thanks to the algea eating eyelash blenny, the Yellow Tang occassionally eats some and the hamster looking thing they gave me at the LFS last weekend, and 4 lettuce nudibranches. As well as the Rabbit fish and 50 new blue leg crabs added this week. I had a fish that ate every shrimp and crab I put in the tank, but My Husband caught him a few days ago (when he went fishing in my tank, while I was gone). I took him to the LFS and traded him to the eyelash blenny. I was threatening to take the tank apart to catch him, and redoing all the rock. He doesn't want me to do that cause it takes days and he has to help (I have some huge, really heavy rocks)
Mary- It occurs to me that if you are illuminating the sump for the mangroves, you may be growing diatoms on that Tidepool wheel that are constantly being knocked off into the water. How long has your Tidepool been in operation?
January or February of 2005
Okay I will try to get to the rest as soon as I find them.
I cheated, and quoted, So I can add the answers in without having to take time to type the question as well. However,I am taking out all the quote information. This is the questions posted by Charles Matthews.
Mary, are you still without substrate?
I do actually have some sand, in the tank. It is mostly blown back into the rocks, where it isn't seen and there is very little of it. The only place you can see it, is in the center, where the rock work is more open.
How often are you feeding?
The last several months, my husband has been feeding the Fish once per day (several frozen cubes, 1 each of mysis, brine, spirilina brine for the Yellow Tang, and usually Ocean Plankton or something like that.) These are all dropped into the tank straight from the freezer, where they float around and the pair of clowns Percula(Nemo Variety) eat from them, then as they get in front of the powerheads they get broken up, and move throughout the tank. That is when, the other fish start to eat on them. This way everybody gets some.
I occassionally feed the coral, but not very often anymore, due to lights always being off by the time I get home. It is very hard to feed a dark tank.
Are you SURE they are taking baby brine shrimp? Any pictures?
Yes. I am positive that they catch and hold onto small brine shrimp occassionally and several if i actually target the B shrimp to them. After a few minutes the shrimps are gone.
As for pictures, no there are not any at this time, as I only just recently acquired a camera that was good enough to allow those kind of shots. But I will try to get some as soon as I can.
How often do you blast the rocks?
I use to blast the rocks several times a day. But then I built this really awesome light setup and it became a real chore to move it. Mainly, because I end up, almost letting it slid to the floor, because I don't always get it pushed straight back. Then I have to get my husband to come help me put it back (he is hard to wake up in the middle of the night and really doesn't appreciate it either. LOL)
So now it gets done, when I have to be in the tank for something else, and I think about it before the top gets put back in place.
How often do you change water, and how much?
I do a water change only when the nitrates build, about every 6-9 months (Please Don't Yell at Me!) That is what seems to work for my tank, to often seems to screw it up. I change about 13 gallons at a time.
How often do you feed DT's or other algal product?
Not sure what DT's are, but if it is the brown powder or some sort of green liquid my brother got, (he gave some to me,) when he bought a 180 gallon setup complete, then I feed them, when I remember that I have them. The same as the ZooMax and cyclopeeze. Usually at the same time mixed into the stuff I mix up that one of local experts formulated. I just add it to the final liquid.
How long exactly have you kept your specimens now?
I got them for my Birthday in April of 2004, If I remember correctly. Plus I cheated and went back and found my original post on when I got them. (found on page 1, I think it was about half way down.)
What do you think about an interview and article? We would need pictures of your entire setup- refugium, closeups of the appearance of the rocks and surfaces and the dendros.
If, you all, really want an interview and article, then I will do it as soon as I can find the time. I can start getting pictures of the equipment and system together over the next few weeks. But first I probably should reformat my computer as it is not working so well of late. Long process first I have to stop taking pictures. I keep burning them to disk but by the time I get finished I am to tired to reformat then I take more pictures LOL.
But I will be doing that in the next week or so out of necessity.
Then I will start taking the pictures. I now have the Digital Canon Rebel XT with some deceit macro lens. plus the add on macro's. I was at my LFS today playing with the different lens I got yesterday. (practice lol)
Right now I am fighting with HAIR ALGEA, and don't want any pictures of my tank taken. But it is on the decline. Thanks to the algea eating eyelash blenny, the Yellow Tang occassionally eats some and the hamster looking thing they gave me at the LFS last weekend, and 4 lettuce nudibranches. As well as the Rabbit fish and 50 new blue leg crabs added this week. I had a fish that ate every shrimp and crab I put in the tank, but My Husband caught him a few days ago (when he went fishing in my tank, while I was gone). I took him to the LFS and traded him to the eyelash blenny. I was threatening to take the tank apart to catch him, and redoing all the rock. He doesn't want me to do that cause it takes days and he has to help (I have some huge, really heavy rocks)
Mary- It occurs to me that if you are illuminating the sump for the mangroves, you may be growing diatoms on that Tidepool wheel that are constantly being knocked off into the water. How long has your Tidepool been in operation?
January or February of 2005
Okay I will try to get to the rest as soon as I find them.
Last edited:
mcox33
New member
I cheated, and quoted, again. So I can add the answers in without having to take time to type the question as well. However,I am taking out all the quote information. This is the questions posted by luvstns726
Mary- How often do you clean the glass?
When ever I see stuff on it and not what is in the tank. I have one of those magnet cleaners.
What's growing on the glass- are you seeing any diatoms?
I don't think so but then I am not 100% sure what they look like either.
Do you use RO water?
No I don't use RO water although I probably should. I have the 24 gallon RO unit but I have never hooked it up. I took it out of the box showed it to my husband and put it back in the box.
Are there silicates in your water?
I use to test for silicates, but the test was always 0 so I stopped testing for them.
One more thing- Mary, what temps are you running?
I think the temps are running at about 78 degrees now that the MH light system is on the tank.
Have there been any temp spikes or sudden changes of salinity that the dendros have successfully weathered?
Actually before the second set of fans arrived (I now have 4 120mm fans) there was a couple of times, that the water got so hot, I was floating ice packs, and everything else in the house that was frozen, in my tank to cool it down.
Mary- How often do you clean the glass?
When ever I see stuff on it and not what is in the tank. I have one of those magnet cleaners.
What's growing on the glass- are you seeing any diatoms?
I don't think so but then I am not 100% sure what they look like either.
Do you use RO water?
No I don't use RO water although I probably should. I have the 24 gallon RO unit but I have never hooked it up. I took it out of the box showed it to my husband and put it back in the box.
Are there silicates in your water?
I use to test for silicates, but the test was always 0 so I stopped testing for them.
One more thing- Mary, what temps are you running?
I think the temps are running at about 78 degrees now that the MH light system is on the tank.
Have there been any temp spikes or sudden changes of salinity that the dendros have successfully weathered?
Actually before the second set of fans arrived (I now have 4 120mm fans) there was a couple of times, that the water got so hot, I was floating ice packs, and everything else in the house that was frozen, in my tank to cool it down.
mcox33
New member
Hope the above post help
and someone keep up with these so I don't have to re answer them for the interview it is hard to remember some of this stuff as I really don't have a routine with my tank. I usually go by how it looks. I don't do any of the test like I use to. I just do what it tells me to do.
and someone keep up with these so I don't have to re answer them for the interview it is hard to remember some of this stuff as I really don't have a routine with my tank. I usually go by how it looks. I don't do any of the test like I use to. I just do what it tells me to do.
luvstns726
New member
Thanks, Mary! I'll keep up with it and would love to do the writeup if you'll help me get the information right.
Some more questions- (and you are very kind to keep at this!)-
1) Would you say that you have gone as long as two months without blasting the rocks more than once a week, and without feeding the dendros specifically, while the dendros continued to look good? My point here is that if they weren't eating from rock blasting and tank wall cleaning daily, they must be eating something else (not scraped diatoms).
2) Regarding silicates, do youhave any information from the public water company about silicates in your area? It may be very important that you DON'T use RO water- this may be allowing silicates into the system, and growing diatoms in the wheel. (For example, Steve Tyree wrote about this in sponge culture...)
3) When you say you scrape the glass when it's needed, is it needed once every three days or more like once every three weeks?
4) I would be more interested in a picture of the hair algae than when you clean the tank up!!! I hope you would feel comfortable showing us the biology of what is going on there and forgive us the fact that we would be guests looking at your home...
Mary, thanks again for your kindness in keeping us informed.
Charles
Some more questions- (and you are very kind to keep at this!)-
1) Would you say that you have gone as long as two months without blasting the rocks more than once a week, and without feeding the dendros specifically, while the dendros continued to look good? My point here is that if they weren't eating from rock blasting and tank wall cleaning daily, they must be eating something else (not scraped diatoms).
2) Regarding silicates, do youhave any information from the public water company about silicates in your area? It may be very important that you DON'T use RO water- this may be allowing silicates into the system, and growing diatoms in the wheel. (For example, Steve Tyree wrote about this in sponge culture...)
3) When you say you scrape the glass when it's needed, is it needed once every three days or more like once every three weeks?
4) I would be more interested in a picture of the hair algae than when you clean the tank up!!! I hope you would feel comfortable showing us the biology of what is going on there and forgive us the fact that we would be guests looking at your home...
Mary, thanks again for your kindness in keeping us informed.
Charles
tinyreef
New member
you're right, i'm probably not so current on dendro research. but i thought their methods were sound. they did note capture techniques of phyto versus zooplankton and even noted specific examples (i.e. bivalve larvae). so i thought their conclusions were pretty sound (to me at least).
after my pm to you i re-read this and i do remember someone noting energy budget questions. maybe it was the wittig paper you're referencing but i don't have that among my archives. but the flow dependency and benayahu/loya's research on artifical reefs (indirectly applied to this topic) i thought showed phyto feeding dominates in the wild.
is there zooplankton capture? i think so but i still think absorption is the key issue. an animal still might ingest something but if it's not edible/digestible i don't think it counts as diet. i thought the chlorophyll-a residual signature from fabricus was a good indicator of that process. i'd definitely like to read your comments on that though.
also, going back to your old fama article, i like the "trigger chemical" thought. i think they're (dendros) wider range feeders than just phyto or zoo. i thought your article was hinting to that, i'm sorry i don't remember it exactly. bacteriovore/fecalvore are possible too imo. mary's fish feeding and some other antecdotal info can be noted but directly linking it might require very expensive methods.
charles matthews
New member
Tinyreef- thanks for your thoughts- I see you've been sweating these articles too! IF you go under Google Scholar and search Wittig and Dendronephthya you should find the article I was referring to; if not, let me know. Like to know what you think about it-
Some of the methods sections of all of these papers are interesting. It seems they have little trouble getting dendros to settle on PVC plates etc. for experiments. Also, turbulent flow with an airstone seems to increase uptake (I read this as a function of contact rate increase, but it's interesting that they didn't mind the turbulence).
Misc. notes: I have ordered an Ogles Mesoscope!
Charles
Some of the methods sections of all of these papers are interesting. It seems they have little trouble getting dendros to settle on PVC plates etc. for experiments. Also, turbulent flow with an airstone seems to increase uptake (I read this as a function of contact rate increase, but it's interesting that they didn't mind the turbulence).
Misc. notes: I have ordered an Ogles Mesoscope!
Charles
sammy33
Member
Mary-
Your input/time is very much appreciated.
A Digital Canon Rebel XT...cool! Do you have a tripod? If you have any questions about taking pictures or need help with posting them please feel free to PM or email me and I will offer all of the assistance I can. I will resize, crop, edit, post and even use my gallery space!
I think your success with your corals (especially the Dendros) and the techniques you are using is most exciting for all who have kept up with this thread.
mcox33
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7968437#post7968437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sammy33
Mary-
Your input/time is very much appreciated.
A Digital Canon Rebel XT...cool! Do you have a tripod? If you have any questions about taking pictures or need help with posting them please feel free to PM or email me and I will offer all of the assistance I can. I will resize, crop, edit, post and even use my gallery space!
I think your success with your corals (especially the Dendros) and the techniques you are using is most exciting for all who have kept up with this thread.
Thanks I am going to send you a pm with the extra lens I have and ask for pointers.
mcox33
New member
I cheated, and quoted, again. So I can add the answers in without having to take time to type the question as well. However,I am taking out all the quote information. This is the questions posted by luvstns726
Some more questions- (and you are very kind to keep at this!)-
1) Would you say that you have gone as long as two months without blasting the rocks more than once a week, and without feeding the dendros specifically, while the dendros continued to look good? My point here is that if they weren't eating from rock blasting and tank wall cleaning daily, they must be eating something else (not scraped diatoms).
It has been several months since I stopped blasting my rocks. (which is probably at least in part why I suddenly have hairalgea) (plus the water change, plus husband used my water mixing container as a dirty clothes hamper, plus tank went under feed, then over feed, when he was learning to feed for me.) I would say the dendros, have looked the same in all this. The only thing I found that upset them was moving them. They would drop branches everytime even if it was only to reposition them in the same spot. But the ones that have sprung up in my tank and grown from the spawn (only explaination I have for how they got to be there) don't seem to mind what I do with them. And I did try an experiment a while back and I moved the originals to other tanks, I have 3 that are saltwater. (Everyone who got frags have said they died) So I thought I would see what happened if I put them in my other tanks. 1 was a 20H the other a 15H anyways within 24 hours they were gone. I haven't tried moving the others as they are on huge rocks in the bottom of my tank plus I kind of like them and don't want to lose them. When I first got them, I was trying to get them started in someone elses tank incase something happened to mine. Then I tried cutting them and it just doesn't work. I now have some very small ones, (a few inches tall with several branches) but they are growing.
Regarding silicates, do you have any information from the public water company about silicates in your area? It may be very important that you DON'T use RO water- this may be allowing silicates into the system, and growing diatoms in the wheel. (For example, Steve Tyree wrote about this in sponge culture...)
I have no Idea on the water in my area, except that they had done something to it. Once when we had been on vacation for a few days, we came home to all 10 tanks needing water topped off. As soon as we did, within 24 hours we lost fish and coral in every tank that we topped off. Even fish in the freshwater tanks. I called the water company, but they swore they had not done anything different. During the same times span several other people in the area had the same problem. I think had we gotten home a day later we would have missed the bad water. Hasn't happened since. But I have always used tap water with de-clor.
I just got tired of doing silicate test, when they always came out 0. So no I do not think there are any silicates in my system. I will try to find the test kit and check them again, as it has been close to a year since I test for them.
When you say you scrape the glass when it's needed, is it needed once every three days or more like once every three weeks?
As I said before I have a magnet cleaner and I use it if I am trying to see something in the tank and there is a dirty spot. I honestly don't know how often my husband might use it, as he has taken to cleaning the glass if he passes by the tank and sees something on it. If you mean how often do I actually get into the tank with a razorblade to clean the glass, then the answer would be once every couple of months.
4) I would be more interested in a picture of the hair algae than when you clean the tank up!!! I hope you would feel comfortable showing us the biology of what is going on there and forgive us the fact that we would be guests looking at your home...
I don't feel the hair algea has anything to do with how well the dendro do, as it is something that has only been present for the last month and is the first time I have had hairalgea in the tank. Although it was probably in the overflow for a good while. And no I am not comfortable with any pictures being taken with the hair algea in the tank. I won't even take them for myself, let alone to have them posted. Sorry but just no way.
When I get rid of this stuff, and it is on the decline, I do not want any reminders that it was ever there. I will be hard enough, when, I think of the corals I have lost during all this. They were some of my favorites.
Some more questions- (and you are very kind to keep at this!)-
1) Would you say that you have gone as long as two months without blasting the rocks more than once a week, and without feeding the dendros specifically, while the dendros continued to look good? My point here is that if they weren't eating from rock blasting and tank wall cleaning daily, they must be eating something else (not scraped diatoms).
It has been several months since I stopped blasting my rocks. (which is probably at least in part why I suddenly have hairalgea) (plus the water change, plus husband used my water mixing container as a dirty clothes hamper, plus tank went under feed, then over feed, when he was learning to feed for me.) I would say the dendros, have looked the same in all this. The only thing I found that upset them was moving them. They would drop branches everytime even if it was only to reposition them in the same spot. But the ones that have sprung up in my tank and grown from the spawn (only explaination I have for how they got to be there) don't seem to mind what I do with them. And I did try an experiment a while back and I moved the originals to other tanks, I have 3 that are saltwater. (Everyone who got frags have said they died) So I thought I would see what happened if I put them in my other tanks. 1 was a 20H the other a 15H anyways within 24 hours they were gone. I haven't tried moving the others as they are on huge rocks in the bottom of my tank plus I kind of like them and don't want to lose them. When I first got them, I was trying to get them started in someone elses tank incase something happened to mine. Then I tried cutting them and it just doesn't work. I now have some very small ones, (a few inches tall with several branches) but they are growing.
Regarding silicates, do you have any information from the public water company about silicates in your area? It may be very important that you DON'T use RO water- this may be allowing silicates into the system, and growing diatoms in the wheel. (For example, Steve Tyree wrote about this in sponge culture...)
I have no Idea on the water in my area, except that they had done something to it. Once when we had been on vacation for a few days, we came home to all 10 tanks needing water topped off. As soon as we did, within 24 hours we lost fish and coral in every tank that we topped off. Even fish in the freshwater tanks. I called the water company, but they swore they had not done anything different. During the same times span several other people in the area had the same problem. I think had we gotten home a day later we would have missed the bad water. Hasn't happened since. But I have always used tap water with de-clor.
I just got tired of doing silicate test, when they always came out 0. So no I do not think there are any silicates in my system. I will try to find the test kit and check them again, as it has been close to a year since I test for them.
When you say you scrape the glass when it's needed, is it needed once every three days or more like once every three weeks?
As I said before I have a magnet cleaner and I use it if I am trying to see something in the tank and there is a dirty spot. I honestly don't know how often my husband might use it, as he has taken to cleaning the glass if he passes by the tank and sees something on it. If you mean how often do I actually get into the tank with a razorblade to clean the glass, then the answer would be once every couple of months.
4) I would be more interested in a picture of the hair algae than when you clean the tank up!!! I hope you would feel comfortable showing us the biology of what is going on there and forgive us the fact that we would be guests looking at your home...
I don't feel the hair algea has anything to do with how well the dendro do, as it is something that has only been present for the last month and is the first time I have had hairalgea in the tank. Although it was probably in the overflow for a good while. And no I am not comfortable with any pictures being taken with the hair algea in the tank. I won't even take them for myself, let alone to have them posted. Sorry but just no way.
When I get rid of this stuff, and it is on the decline, I do not want any reminders that it was ever there. I will be hard enough, when, I think of the corals I have lost during all this. They were some of my favorites.
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tinyreef
New member
thank you for your thoughts! this is only one of two threads i subscribe to at all on all the different forums and websites! the other thread being the 'sola-tubes/sunlight thread' also found here in the Advanced Forum.
but i've been reading some of your other posts in other forums (via google search you suggested) and it was very interesting reading (just like your 'chemical triggers' article was!
). so some of the topics i mentioned separately was already gone over by you last year or perhaps even long before that, i.e. bacterioplankton/ivore, etc.yes, if you can send me the link to wittig's article that would be greatly appreciated! i think i've read it before but like i mentioned separately, i really don't recall any of the specifics though.
but i have been able to locate some other articles/authors i had been searching a while for (via your google scholar suggestion) and i'll be reading them to check pertinency. i'll forward you/check with you if you've seen them before and/or your opinions.
i think benayahu's opinion was it's more of a function of competition (or lack of in a newly 'naked' surface) than of the particulars surrounding the makeup of the substrate, itself. hence the oil rigs studies and artificial reef studies he specializes in. but that could also just be a biased eye at work (although a very respected biased eye imho! :lol: ).
i understand both charles' interest in seeing the algae formation and mary's reticence. i run my tanks on the "hairier" side too (on purpose, sorta
) but i do think the microhabitats/microenvironments found within the algae stalks/hairs actually contributes to the ecosystem. just another minute niche of the whole of the reef imo, just like the cryptic zones, top-reef, biofilm, macrofauna, etc.does it directly contribute to the dendros well-being or ill-being? that's probably still up for discussion but i'd tend to agree with mary they're not directly contributory either way as the dendros were there long before the hair was.
otoh, i believe the pico/nano/phyto/zooplankton generated in-between the algae's strands (i.e. microenvironments) can help overall imo. i just don't know if the incidental benefits overcomes the organics/chemicals the algae itself also likely pumps out into the system, e.g. gelbstoff/crappie.
