New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[Stottlemire]

Whats going on everyone? My name is Chuck. The dendro tank Morgandy posted is mine, its a 180 gallon display with about a 380 gallon sump. Believe me this tank is a lot of work, but I will try to share as much info as I have on it
Chuck

 

[graveyardworm]

I can get this started, can you describe the flow in the tank and around the Dendros, how are the Dendros positioned in the flow? What are you feeding them, do you spot feed? What kind of lighting? What kind of filtration? How long has the tank been setup? What is the age of your oldest Dendro?

There will be plenty more questions, hopefully the thread starter Charles Mathews will see his thread is back in action. Thanks for coming here to discuss this.

 

[sammy33]

Chuck,
Glad to see you are having some success with this style tank. I look forward to hearing of your experiences.

 

[Morgandy]

I've sent Charles Matthews about 3-4 emails over the past 6 weeks regarding some questions, but unfortunately I don't think he has been following this still, or is just extremely busy.

One thing about the good progress so far with Chuck's tank, is that a couple times I still 'thought' I was ready to try some dendo's again, but of course I don't have that green-thumb, so when they started to fail, I'd give them to him, and they started to thrive and grow once in his system. Bringing them back from midway demise has been another 'testament' to his early-on nailing the requirements. I won't speak for him and what he's doing, so hopefully he'll get info posted soon.

Flow flow flow and positioning is a HUGE factor that can't be underestimated...the rest he can chime in on!

 

[Stottlemire]

To put answers to some of the questions.First the flow 3 6100 Tunze pumps at one end of the tank on a Tunze multi controller all blasting in the same direction. Feeding, now thats the story of this tank. Phyto feast by Reed Mariculture 60mls total over a 24hr period. I also add 40mls of Rotifers by Reed a day, these are the main foods I add. No I don't spot feed the corals. lighting is a pair of t-5s at 54watts each. A skimmer is the filtration. The system is about 6 years old it started as an acro tank. the oldest dendros are frags I started 6 months ago, I made the frags 1in and now here it is 6months later the frags are between 3.5 and 5 inches tall now. The corals are encrusting on the rocks. I hope this answers your questions David.
Chuck

 

[Siapin]

Chuck...can you explain why you made the sump 380, while the tank is only 180?

What is in the sump that you need it so big?

 

[Stottlemire]

Siapin
The reason in this system is the 300 gallon tank is used for delution. I have an 80 gallon tank set up as a sump and also more delution. They were on the original acro system I had.
When I decided to take on the new challenge with the dendros I thought out issues like excess foods and the more water the less the pollution impact from food.
I hope this makes sence
Chuck

 

[Siapin]

but if you aren't spot feeding, and just dosing the tank, then you have to use more food, right? or do you turn off the circulation for a while while the corals get to absorbing the food in the water column?

 

[Stottlemire]

Yes I do feed alot, but I'm also feeding all the other critters in the system to. when you look at the pics Morgandy posted theres a couple of black barrel sponges I NEVER purchased, but because I feed alot they are there and growing like a weed. My thought on this tank is probably diffrent then most. I am feeding the tank and hoping the tank will take care of the corals. When you feed animals like the dendros they can only take in some many cells of food at any given time so if the tank is being feed and water circulates through the system, enough food come back around. Right now I like what I see.
Chuck

 

[graveyardworm]

Do you feed the phyto manually or do you have drip system set up so its continuous?

At what levels are your nitrates, PO4, and any other parameters you regularly test for?

 

[Tactstat]

I reread my post and didn't state in such a good manner what I was seeing.

Part 1
As Applies to Dendroneptheas:
The flow I would have to describe as predominately tidal with power waves. People who have been on drift dives know what I am talking about. The tidal current will pull you along the reef face somewhere between 6' and 10' in a single linear direction; then a pause or small reverse flow (from large surface waves), lasting maybe 20-30 seconds and pulling you in the opposite direction maybe 1'-2'. Then the big surge hits again and you get pulled along the reef.

The other areas (with out a lot of dendros/gorgs/crinoids) were either near the surface with a huge about of wave surge, or in the protected lagoons with a slower gentler wave surge.

Part 2

On a side note I'll finally be setting up the dewdrop test tank I have been planning for almost 3 years, based on what I saw in Thailand. Woot!

Tank:
It will be a 65 gallon Sea clear II, with the filter area turned into a refuguim, and a HOB Remora skimmer.

Flow:
After watching the corals in the wild and checking out various public aquariums and MACNA events I think the way to go to test out if "Flow is the end all cure" this tank will be set up as a psuedo-kriesel or horizontal gyre tank. The Siam aquarium in Bangkok inspired the idea with one of their jelly tanks. I am going to added curved plastic pieces to the corners and middle of the tank providing two circular flow areas. (Tank is aprox twice as long as high, so by dividing it in half I get 2 almost perfect circles)

The dendros will be attached to a dilled PVC pipe running horizontal in the center of the gyre so the coral will stick out into the laminar flow (mimicking a jelly tank).

3 converted Maxi jets (from MJmods, to be consistent and repeatable) will be hooked up to a Lighthouse controller. 1 pump left, 1 pump center and 1 pump right. Each placed flat on the bottom of the tank, and pointing vertically up.

On a 6 hour time scale either the outside pumps or the middle pump will be on generating what I hope will be very similar to a constant linear and laminar tidal flow in a circle around the coral. Opposing that on probably a 10 min time table the outside pumps will turn on and disrupt the kriesel style flow to simulate the wave action I saw in Thailand.

I plan to play with feeding different things and different but this tank will primarily be to test the corals response to flow. I will be using the plaster of Paris dissolution test before the tank is turned to salt to see if I can get a reading on water motion in the tank.

I'll probably set up 5 or 6 ice cube tray pieces of plaster in the tank at increasing radius from the center of the horizontal gyre to measure the flow, and compare it to both a 0 flow container of water and then see about replicating the flow of a Hagan 802 power head at the required distance to hit 15 cm/sec flow.

I figure I can adjust the flow rate of the gyre to fit the speed I want about ½ way out from the center, based on how long the pumps are on. Ideally I’ll hit a sweat spot of 15 cm/sec of laminar flow 8-10” out of the center of the tank. That should be about perfect for the majority of branches on most of the dendros I see in store around here.

If that made any sense, feel free to comment! I'll try to get some Google Sketch images up in the next day or to, and I'll take pics of the tank and hardware once it all arrives this
Weekend!

I plan to set up both the lighthouse controller stats and a web cam online so people can watch, and then link the controllers readings to a SQL database so I can start a data track to monitor the way things go.

-Tactstat

 

[Morgandy]

Tacstat, I like the idea of such a unique setup to experiment with. That kind of thought seems to be what is needed, a novel approach looking at all angles rathr than just throwing them in a rather common setup.

I'm curious if the maxi-jet mods will be sufficient, so will be interested in your observations on that. I've come to really like the vortech pumps with the magnets holding them on (one is on outside of tank, the circulation head on the inside. Aslo,do you have links to some of the aquariums that show their setups? Have you seen dendro tanks thriving up to and past a 1yr mark? Would love to see your drawings too when you have them ready.

Also, Chuck showed me one of the DVD's where the dendro's were in cave over-hangs in the oceans, where it appeared very little surge or turbulance entered, so, the variety of flow may be a good test, high flow vs low.. Will this be plumbed into a sump, fuge, etc??

 

[Tactstat]

I have been looking into some of those tanks, actually. I like what I see too, but I am going to try to replicate the flow in particular that I saw where the dendros were growing.

It took about a year to decide on the kriesel/horizontal gyre flow tank (not sure really what the difference between the two is), and another 2 years to figure how to make it work.

Hopefully the gyre will have two effects. The first is of course the constant linear flow of the correct speed. The second is the continuous suspension of food in the water. Theoretically, due to the speed difference between the inside and outside of the horizontal gyre, suspended partials will be moved toward the center, lower flow area of the tank.

So the idea is to have a large volume of water, capable of absorbing the bioload of a high food intake and concentrating the food in a very small portion of the tank, right where the coral polyps are. If you have ever been in the center of a whirlpool and notice the small pile of debris in the center, that’s the effect I am going for. Hopefully I’ll be able to get videos with phyto to see if it works.

I don't know if the maxis will be powerful enough, but supposedly they'll hit 2000-2400 gph, at about 50$ a pump, it’s much more economical for a test than the Vortech. I wanted Vortechs, but 3 of them is 900$+ for 9000 gph. The Maxis were 200$ for 8000 gph.

I also didn't want to have to switch out control boards in 2 or 3 months!

I am thinking about having and SPS side and a Dendro side too. Since there will be two gyres, I am considering using one for SPS with a 250 Sunpod over it, and just letting the light spill over to the Dendro side, so there is no direct lighting over them. I did seem them out in the open under direct light, but down around 20-30' depths.

There will probably be no sump at the moment. I don't feel like drilling holes in this tank yet. That doesn't always go so good. There will be a 3-5 gallon fuge in the back of the Seaclear tank. These are the tanks with the built in area for filtration. The HOB skimmer will pull water out of the over flow chamber, and feed back into the area that used to house bioballs (I’ll have macro in there). I was going to use an ATS, but it won’t fit.

I'll get more details and a hopefully a detailed plan up online this weekend when its raining and I can't work on the stand anyway.

-Tactstat

 

[Tactstat]

I did see Dendros under some of the caves, and even what was probably polyp spawn on the rubble under the caves, but they never looked as full or healthy as those out in the open. Those areas were predomently covered in tubestreas, sun corals and whip corals, and white polyped gorgonians.

I did see in one cave the infamous blue berry gorg though. They were all very small, less than 6" or so tall, and I imagine were feed on things the limited wave action kicked up from the substrate.

As a side note, I never saw any dendronepethas in the sand where I was either! There were some that were growing on rocks several feet above the sand, but not in or on the sand.

Of course there wasn't alot of sand anyway. The reefs we were on were 90% rock structure.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10049419#post10049419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Morgandy

Also, Chuck showed me one of the DVD's where the dendro's were in cave over-hangs in the oceans, where it appeared very little surge or turbulance entered, so, the variety of flow may be a good test, high flow vs low.. Will this be plumbed into a sump, fuge, etc??

 

[Tactstat]

Alright, not the best google sketch out there, but I think it gets the point across.

1) white horizontal cylinders are PVC pipe where the corals will be attached. 1 will have small live rock mounted to it, to hold SPS/LPS and a 250 Sunpod over it. The other will be left bare and the dendros will be attached directly to it, hopefully preventing the spread of bristleworms.

2) the short white columns are where the maxijets will go, pointed vertically in order to create the gyre effect.

3) Brown semi-transparent sections are what is going to shape the circular flow around the corals in the middle. I am trying to find a way to fill that space with rubble and small live rock.

Obiviously there is more to it, but this gets the idea across I belive.

Feedback?

 

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10053108#post10053108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tactstat

Alright, not the best google sketch out there, but I think it gets the point across.

1) white horizontal cylinders are PVC pipe where the corals will be attached. 1 will have small live rock mounted to it, to hold SPS/LPS and a 250 Sunpod over it. The other will be left bare and the dendros will be attached directly to it, hopefully preventing the spread of bristleworms.

2) the short white columns are where the maxijets will go, pointed vertically in order to create the gyre effect.

3) Brown semi-transparent sections are what is going to shape the circular flow around the corals in the middle. I am trying to find a way to fill that space with rubble and small live rock.

Obiviously there is more to it, but this gets the idea across I belive.

Feedback?

Very interesting tank set up...Seems that there will be alot of unused space, is this correct?

 

[Tactstat]

Unused? Define unused... Not alot of rocks? Yeah most of the reef is really water, only the bottom is rock *grin*

Now I admit there isn't alot of room for corals, but they can be mounted in any position, all the way around the PVC pipe.

I feel that this tank maybe be better at utilizing all the space within than a standard tank. There shouldn't be any dead spots and with less rock there is more room for water flow and more room for corals to grow.

Now when everything dies, and I get mad, I'll probably say I wasted to much space!

 

[Morgandy]

Why aren't you going to just do dendro's in it? Mixing in SPS and LPS in it seems to be risking the main intent of attempting these guys, and varying the requirements of the whole tank which has been one of the reasons for their failure over time. Just curious..

Also, what size will the tank be, and what about the sump?

 

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10055609#post10055609 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tactstat
Unused? Define unused... Not alot of rocks? Yeah most of the reef is really water, only the bottom is rock *grin*

Now I admit there isn't alot of room for corals, but they can be mounted in any position, all the way around the PVC pipe.

I feel that this tank maybe be better at utilizing all the space within than a standard tank. There shouldn't be any dead spots and with less rock there is more room for water flow and more room for corals to grow.

Now when everything dies, and I get mad, I'll probably say I wasted to much space!

I am just saying, that it seems that you will not be placing anything on the ground and stacking it. Those PVC's will only allow a limited amount of corals on them and you have to consider grow out...unless you are having more PVC then the pic shows.

There is nothing wrong with this set up at all and looks like it will offer very good flow around the corals.

 

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10056454#post10056454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Morgandy
Why aren't you going to just do dendro's in it? Mixing in SPS and LPS in it seems to be risking the main intent of attempting these guys, and varying the requirements of the whole tank which has been one of the reasons for their failure over time. Just curious..

Also, what size will the tank be, and what about the sump?

How do you know that the varients of the tank which contain SPS and LPS is the reason for Dendro's failure?

These animals seem to like the same water conditions as SPS do. But they like to be fed more, so feed heavy, big skimmer, and water changes have kept mine happy. Mine are actually growing quite a bit.

I will be getting pics soon of my corals and them growing.