New Guinean Frogfish - Antennarius dorehensis - breeding updates

[Mr. Ugly]

I'd been posting this info in a variety of places, and I thought I'd try to keep track of it here.

links to previous info, questions, and comments:

http://www.bareefers.org/bar/viewtopic.php?t=952

http://www.bareefers.org/bar/viewtopic.php?t=994

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic32865-12-1.aspx

http://www.grimreefers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7720

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7213306#post7213306

The current status - the frogfish pair spawned for the 5th time over the past weekend. I placed the egg raft into the newest version of my kreisel. Eggs began hatching Wednesday evening. And the free swimming larvae are into their second day.

Here's a pic at 60x magnification through a QX5 microscope that I picked up recently.

Here's a short video, also through the scope. Most of the video is at 60x, with the last few seconds at 200x magnification. You can see the heart beating in the larvae in some of the shots.


I have video of the spawning behavior preceding the previous batch of eggs. Also have some video of the last several days of development of the egg raft and larvae in the new kreisel. I'll try to post some possibly very late this evening, or over the weekend.

Here's a question for the experienced breeders...

Do the rotifers at the beginning of the video look too big for these larvae? I"m hoping that they'll be taken as a suitable first food.

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Not very organized at this point, but I dumped a bunch of vids here, including a new one of 4 day old frogfish larvae.

http://www.putfile.com/mr_ugly

 

[mwp]

Mr. Ugly, have you given any thoughts to canabalism among the larvae once they get to "that size" where they go "predatory"? It just hit me that we are talking about fish that can eat things as big as they are!

I noticed a video in the collection called "9th day" - is that 9th day post hatching? They look really viable at that point, like maybe BBS is in their future!

Matt

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Sorry, the vids toward the bottom were of the 3rd batch. 9th day would be since spawning, not hatching. I changed the labeling convention with this 5th batch. It's approximately 5 days for the eggs to hatch, so 9th day vid is of 4 day old larvae.

Cannibalism... yes, I expect them to go after each other when they go benthic. I'll have to move to larger tank, and also split them into batches.

Talked to Bookfish/Jim last night. I'm going to split this batch of larvae with him to try to maximize the number that survive. He set up a system for them last night, I think. I should be getting larvae to him in a day or so

 

[Luis A M]

Mr Ugly your experience is awesome It is great that you document it and share it with us all,in this forum.I noticed some of your previous posts were in another forum,perhaps because all other froggers were there.
There are very few reports of antennarids spawning,perhaps because nobody keep them in pairs as these fish have the reputation of eating their partners.
Good luck and keep posted!

 

[GreshamH]

Great to hear Jim is joining in your trials Arnold Still think they need SS?

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Yep Randy , I'm psyched that Jim is in on this too!

Dropped off about 1/3 of the batch of larvae at Jim's last night around 10:30. I split the rotifer culture with him, and some of the Rotifer Diet too.

He has the larvae in a 10 gallon hex with sponge filter on his kitchen counter. We floated the larvae container in the tank to let it temp acclimate with a little of the tank water washing over the edge of the container too. After hanging out for a while, we just went for it and swished them all into the hex. The larvae all looked good and were busy swimming around at the top of the tank.

It was good timing for splitting the batch. It gave me a chance to transfer the larvae out of their kreisel so that I could clean it for the first time. I'd been paranoid to move them any sooner.

Larvae are 6 days old this morning So it looks like they must have been eating the L strain rotifers you set me up with. So maybe I lucked out re the SS

I have that pod tank running for a couple or so weeks by now. So I guess that'll be their next food... or NHBS at some point. The part I'm not looking forward to is dangling individual Arcti Pods in front of 1/4" baby frogs later on

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Luis,

Yes, a lot of the frogfish fans hang out on GR. Always looking for new info on ReefCheries's "Frogfish Files" thread here too.

Frogfish can be touchy enough to keep individually, let alone in groups. I read reports of female frogs in the wild turning around and eating the males when they didn't follow through with the mating behavior.

Actually, I had a slight scare the other week. My frogs learned that if I show up, that they might have a chance at some food. I'd noticed that the pair were hanging out together... a couple days post spawn. Normally, when they're not "in the mood" they hang out in different spots on the rockwork. Anyway, I saw a chance to take a "cute" pic with the 2 ugly fish all cuddled up out in the open.

I got to the tank with my camera, and the female started looking around for food. Then she turned around and saw the male and gave him a bite on the head before she got out of feeding mode. Then they went their separate ways.

Sounds like some married couples

I got really lucky with this pair. They both came into the store from the wholesaler at the same time, and they likely were collected together. They do pair up in the wild, but I didn't realize these were a mated pair. The male was having a hard time acclimating at the store, and was floating around upside down, looking almost dead. Steve, of New Alameda Aquatics, just gave me the male and told me to see if I could rescue it. He was in the middle of remodeling, and didn't have time to deal with tiny sick oddball fishes.

I'm really glad I have a chance to post breeding info here. I've been really really lucky with these fish, and have gotten a ton of help from Uberfugu, ReefCherie, Gresham/Reef Nutrition, Dr. Marini, Steve/NAA, Jim/Bookfish, Matt/MWP and a bunch others.

At some point, I'll have to coerce Uberfugu and ReefCherie to help raising these frogs

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Luis,

Btw, check out Uberfugu's lophiocharon frogs on GR and Frogfish Files! The male is holding eggs right now

 

[mwp]

6 days old - congrats! I'll still shoot you off some SS when they're ready, granted, what kind of survival rate are you looking at right now? If you have HUNDREDS then yeah, you probably don't need them

Do you have access to the frozen cyclopeze? About 1/4 the size of the Arcti-Pods. I would think that if you have a LOT of larvae, BBS is going to be the route to go with at least some of them...my Tiggerpod cultures don't produce a ton of food, not to mention the copepods in my rotifer cultures have diminished somewhat. While I love the copepods, they're hardly going to be producing enough food for a good hatch of mandarins....BBS is going to have to play a role.

Stoked, very excited for you Mr. Ugly!

Matt

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Matt, I should be able to get some cyclopeze, though I don't expect these guys to take any non movling food. Even as adults, they can be tricky to train to eat non live.

Got back late from Bookfish's. Took some vids of the froggies again. Interesting new thing. For the last couple days, I've seen groups/swarms of the larvae gathered together in one spot or patch at the bottom of their container. First time was maybe 25% of the larvae, and I almost thought I imagined it. Last night, maybe 50% had been grouped together. This was about 5 hours after a feeding. I gave them another dose of rotifers around 1am, after which I didn't see any settled down in the container any more.

I tried editing the vids I"ve been collecting this past week, but kept zonking out and just went to bed at 3.

Here's a short clip of some of the previous pre-spawning behavior. Female's swollen vent is visible.

http://media.putfile.com/frogfish-mating-behavior

 

[GreshamH]

Matt, luckily he's got local access to me, and a sponsorship from us at Reed Mariculture. He'll have no problem with obtaining enough copepods, if he wants to go that route.

Are you using the greenwater method with the larvae?

 

[Mr. Ugly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7558943#post7558943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
Matt, luckily he's got local access to me, and a sponsorship from us at Reed Mariculture. He'll have no problem with obtaining enough copepods, if he wants to go that route.

That did look like sponsorship stuff that Jim was typing at you last night Too awesome Thanks for all the phyto this weekend too.

Did a one gallon drip water change through the container early last night and filtered a quart of rotifer culture to feed the larvae. Then one more time after midnight with a gallon of culture.

Did a 10 second flush and backflush partial water change this morning, then dosed the rotifers from a gallon of culture. and added a little phyto to keep the rotis happy until I get home this evening.

Day 7 today

 

[mwp]

Mr. Ugly I am jealous of your success thus far - I haven't gotten ANYTHING past 5 days yet out of my Mandarins and GBGs and all the freakin' cardinals! CONGRATS and KUDOS to REED for "sponsoring" your efforts - that's REALLY cool (I hope that means lot of "food" for your little carnivores)!

The SS are bustin' out this week...at least that front is secure!

Mr. Ugly, anything learned from the frogfish incubation that might carry over to my mandarin woes?

MP

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7560635#post7560635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
That did look like sponsorship stuff that Jim was typing at you last night Too awesome Thanks for all the phyto this weekend too.

Our pleasure

We're excited about all the projects we sponsor with feed, both at the hobbyist level, and the univertisty/research level.

 

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7551157#post7551157 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
Luis,

Btw, check out Uberfugu's lophiocharon frogs on GR and Frogfish Files! The male is holding eggs right now

Lost here,can´t figure about GR Hint,please?.

Are the larvae still doing fine?.Do you consider at this height that they are eating rots,or could you actually see them feeding?.
Your results so far are awesome and inspiring.I don´t recall any previous report on frogfish larval raising.Are you aware of any?
Reason could be that the larvae are impossible to raise so far,or else that they are not particularly difficult,but keeping a pair together to produce a fertile spawn is the hard task.As a hobbyist,I hope the second reason is the real one,as by solving that obstacle,we can all enjoy captive raised froglets!
I once had a single H.histrio that produced (obviously infertile)egg rafts.That was at the time reported in the old BR.It was interesting even if it was not a "breeding"report really.Recently the BR had announced an Indian article on Histrio producing infertile eggs again without mating.Seemingly there has been no advances in all these years! .They were obviously not checking RC breeders forum! .
Given the serious danger of one fish being eaten by the other,I imagined keeping both sexes in a 10 gal or so,separated by an eggcrate fence which should be withdrawn when the female was clearly distended with eggs.Now seeing your videos,I guess a larger and especially taller tank would be needed.
I wish you the best luck with the larvae.If you succeed to have them settled,then you will probable need to make a multi cell enclosure system,to raise every froglet isolated,but at that point that will be a minor chore,compared with the pride of such an achievement!

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Not much time to post right now, but...

Luis, GR = Grim Reefers. There's a url near the top of this thread.

New vid taken just a few minutes ago. 8 day old larvae. You can see further development of the pectoral fins and mouth parts.

Check out the second half of the clip to see action of the mouth parts.

http://media.putfile.com/5th-batch-8th-day-200x

 

[aomont]

Hi Mr. Ugly,
How are your tadpoles going ?
Anderson.

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Anderson,

I didn't make it past 8 days with the larvae

The new larvae container helped with getting them to the 8 day point, but I believe I had 2 problems. After I split my rotifer culture, I think I shocked it by stepping up the water volume too soon, as my rotifer density didn't come back in time. Also, I should have switched from batch to continuous water change probably around day 5. I came up with a way to do that with an air line siphon from the aquaclear, but didn't set that up until day 7 or 8.

Worse news.... the pair were hanging out together side by side a few days after spawning, which was unusual for them. I tried to take a picture, but when the female saw me get close to the tank, she thought I was bringing food, and went into food stalking mode. She turned around a couple times looking for food, and saw only the male. Then she automatically took a bite at him before she switched out of hunting mode. She didn't try all that hard to eat him, but she did bite him on the head. He ended up dieing a week later from an injured mouth which had made it too hard from him to breathe

So in the last week or so, I've been trying to find another dorehensis, or even several in order to get one or more pairs. Unfortunately, they're not common in the stores, and they're not specifically identified. New Alameda Aquatics, the LFS that I go to, has been working really hard tracking down frogs for me from their suppliers.

So far, I picked up 2 Antennatus, and 4 mummifer. So I have an option to try for pairs of those too.

 

[mwp]

Sorry to hear the bad luck there! Has Jim gotten any farther with the larvae you dropped of with him?

Matt