TheFishMan65
New member
Great siskiou glad to hear it.
NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!
- Thread starter Herbie
- Start date
PowermanKW
New member
OK.... A siphon is A BENT TUBE. With TWO legs of different length. It CAN"T start by itself. It MUST be primed first. Energy must be added to lift water to start it. Once going it will flow. It will flow more than a simple drain working with simple head pressure.
If air gets in, the siphon action WILL BE BROKE. The siphon action will stop PERIOD. It will NOT start again on its own.... unless water level is higher than the BENT TUBE.
A drain is a drain is a DRAIN. It starts to flow due to potential energy stored in head pressure . The weight of water PERIOD. It needs no action to START PERIOD. There is no bent tube. If a vortex starts and air gets in IT DOES NOT STOP DRAINING. Drain action does not stop due to air. A FULL pipe flow more water than one with a 1/4" tube of air in the middle. The tube is full or it is not.
According to you there is no drain that exists on the planet. Every single body of water on the planet is a siphon. So what to you is a drain?
You keep talking about the SUCTION of the siphon on a simple drain. Then tell me what the net positive suction head is a drain with an inch of water on it? There is no suction head. There is only positive head pressure. ONE INCH. The SUCTION pressure in a TRUE siphon is equal to the weight of water in the long leg of the BENT TUBE. it flows more than just the head pressure on the short leg of the BENT TUBE.
So what is the net positive suction head of the drain you describe? Vortexes are formed from the Earth's rotation. If I lived in your world, my bathtub would stop draining as soon as a vortex formed and got air in my drain pipe.
PowermanKW
New member
The big issue here is you using some knowledge of physics and applying it wrong and making this much more complicated than it is. Water does not suck. It will seek the lowest energy level. The lowest level. Water flows from one hight to the lower hight. Period. End of story. No siphons, no venturis, and if a vortex forms big whoop. Water will continue to flow until it has got to the lowest energy level.
Yes Herbie is set up to eliminate air to eliminate noise, NOT to start a siphon. Bean's design does. THIS IS NOT BEANS DESIGN. Do not cross them up. Don't even mention them together at all. Not the same setup. Bean does use a siphon. This one does not.
PowermanKW
New member
OK.... let me settle down.... and try a different approach. Don't mean to get testy.
So.... everything flows due to gravity. Water seeking it's lowest level. The force behind every thing is gravity. This I'm sure we can agree on.
Say we have a tank of water with 2 feet of water and a drain valve at the bottom. What we have is 2 feet of head pressure. We open the drain on a 1" inch line and it will flow what a 1" line will flow with 2 feet of head pressure. As the tank drains, head pressure decreases, and flow will slow accordingly. At some point a vortex will form at say 4" of water. Flow will slow again simply because now the line has air in it. Flow will never stop though until all water drains.
Now, lets say we set that tank on a 3 foot stand. The valve still only has 2 feet of head pressure, and it will flow the same as it did.
Now, lets move that drain valve to the floor. Now we have 5 feet of head pressure sitting on top of it. When we open the valve all the way, the line will now flow more water because of the higher head pressure on it.
OK....so much for a simple drain...... let's move on to a siphon.
We have the same 2 foot tank of water on the ground. We put a U-tube over the side of the tank. Extend one side 6 inches into the water, and the other side goes to the ground. We have no flow. We must start the siphon. We suck on the other end to anitiate flow.
What we now have is 6" of head pressure on the tank side pipe. On the other side we have in effect 2 feet of head pressure. The weight of water in the two foot side is driving... or pulling... on the 6" of head pressure in the tank. The net positive head you are working with is STILL 2 feet because the water has to rise in the pipe. It will flow the same water than the 2 feet of head pressure in our above example. It continues to drain the tank. As that 6" of head pressure decreases inside the tank, flow slows accordingly because now the water has to be "lifted" above the side of the tank. Yet on the other side of the tank you still have that 2 foot of water driving the system, or pulling it over the side of the tank. The net positive result is you still have 18" of head driving flow when it gets to the bottom of the 6 inch pipe inside the tank.
So... what happens then??? Well the tank drains to 6". Then air enters the siphon and breaks flow. Air inside the tube is not heavier than water. It can't pull anything. The siphon stops flow, the tank remains at 18" Further action is required to initiate flow again.
Now lets put that tank on the 3 foot stand and extend that siphon to the floor and the pipe inside the tank to the bottom of the tank.
You have the exact same setup as the above example. On the outside leg, you have the weight of 5 feet of water moving water. The same as a simple drain with the valve at the floor. The flow is very fast, but as the tank empties, it gets sower until air enters the system then breaks the siphon, and we still have say 1" of water left in the bottom. Flow stops. Further action is required to get it going.
So... what does all that mean??? What drives everything is gravity and the weight of the water column from one level to the lower level. The difference is that with a tank with a drain at the bottom, water will flow regardless of any action out the bottom of the tank till it is all gone. Period.
What a siphon gives is the ability to "lift" water by using the weight of a longer leg of water on the other side to do the work. We use the water weight against itself to "lift" water over the edge of a container. Because if there is no drain at the bottom, how do we get the water out? We use the siphon and the water wieght to give a net head pressure to drive the system.
Why people mistakenly say a siphon moves more water than a simple drain is this.....
If we have a 18" stand pipe inside that same two foot tank. Water will drain due to the 6" of head pressure at the stand pipe. It will probably not flow much and create a vortex and allow air in. It will drain slower and slower until the 6" of water is gone to the level of the top of the stand pipe. We look at that and say..... hummmm it took 5 minutes to drain 6" of water.
OK.... now lets use a siphon with 6" inches of pipe into the water and 5 feet to the floor. We start the siphon.... and we drain that 6" of water in 2 minutes. Hummm... a siphon flows more water.
Not so fast..... the siphon has the advantage of 5 feet of head pressure driving it. It DOES NOT flow more than a drain that has 5 feet of water above the drain valve. It has the SAME flow. Yet we say a siphon drains water faster. But it important to compare apples to apples and look at the height of the water column driving the system. 6 inches versus 5 feet.
So a siphon is a bent tube that allows us to "lift" water above a level. But air getting in decreases the weight of the water column and will eventually break flow. A drain just drains.
The difference with Dursos and other stand pipe with u tubes at the end it that you need the air break in there to prevent a siphon action. Because at one point the tube overflows with air, but then it gets so full and all of a sudden flows a LOT more because a siphon. And it will continue to go back and forth like that. How ever... you are going from a head pressure of 2 inches, to all of a sudden 5 feet when the siphon begins. Then it cycles back and forth. So you need the siphon break to allow air to allow the pipe just to overflow.
Now.... does any of that help??? I mean that sincerely.
So.... everything flows due to gravity. Water seeking it's lowest level. The force behind every thing is gravity. This I'm sure we can agree on.
Say we have a tank of water with 2 feet of water and a drain valve at the bottom. What we have is 2 feet of head pressure. We open the drain on a 1" inch line and it will flow what a 1" line will flow with 2 feet of head pressure. As the tank drains, head pressure decreases, and flow will slow accordingly. At some point a vortex will form at say 4" of water. Flow will slow again simply because now the line has air in it. Flow will never stop though until all water drains.
Now, lets say we set that tank on a 3 foot stand. The valve still only has 2 feet of head pressure, and it will flow the same as it did.
Now, lets move that drain valve to the floor. Now we have 5 feet of head pressure sitting on top of it. When we open the valve all the way, the line will now flow more water because of the higher head pressure on it.
OK....so much for a simple drain...... let's move on to a siphon.
We have the same 2 foot tank of water on the ground. We put a U-tube over the side of the tank. Extend one side 6 inches into the water, and the other side goes to the ground. We have no flow. We must start the siphon. We suck on the other end to anitiate flow.
What we now have is 6" of head pressure on the tank side pipe. On the other side we have in effect 2 feet of head pressure. The weight of water in the two foot side is driving... or pulling... on the 6" of head pressure in the tank. The net positive head you are working with is STILL 2 feet because the water has to rise in the pipe. It will flow the same water than the 2 feet of head pressure in our above example. It continues to drain the tank. As that 6" of head pressure decreases inside the tank, flow slows accordingly because now the water has to be "lifted" above the side of the tank. Yet on the other side of the tank you still have that 2 foot of water driving the system, or pulling it over the side of the tank. The net positive result is you still have 18" of head driving flow when it gets to the bottom of the 6 inch pipe inside the tank.
So... what happens then??? Well the tank drains to 6". Then air enters the siphon and breaks flow. Air inside the tube is not heavier than water. It can't pull anything. The siphon stops flow, the tank remains at 18" Further action is required to initiate flow again.
Now lets put that tank on the 3 foot stand and extend that siphon to the floor and the pipe inside the tank to the bottom of the tank.
You have the exact same setup as the above example. On the outside leg, you have the weight of 5 feet of water moving water. The same as a simple drain with the valve at the floor. The flow is very fast, but as the tank empties, it gets sower until air enters the system then breaks the siphon, and we still have say 1" of water left in the bottom. Flow stops. Further action is required to get it going.
So... what does all that mean??? What drives everything is gravity and the weight of the water column from one level to the lower level. The difference is that with a tank with a drain at the bottom, water will flow regardless of any action out the bottom of the tank till it is all gone. Period.
What a siphon gives is the ability to "lift" water by using the weight of a longer leg of water on the other side to do the work. We use the water weight against itself to "lift" water over the edge of a container. Because if there is no drain at the bottom, how do we get the water out? We use the siphon and the water wieght to give a net head pressure to drive the system.
Why people mistakenly say a siphon moves more water than a simple drain is this.....
If we have a 18" stand pipe inside that same two foot tank. Water will drain due to the 6" of head pressure at the stand pipe. It will probably not flow much and create a vortex and allow air in. It will drain slower and slower until the 6" of water is gone to the level of the top of the stand pipe. We look at that and say..... hummmm it took 5 minutes to drain 6" of water.
OK.... now lets use a siphon with 6" inches of pipe into the water and 5 feet to the floor. We start the siphon.... and we drain that 6" of water in 2 minutes. Hummm... a siphon flows more water.
Not so fast..... the siphon has the advantage of 5 feet of head pressure driving it. It DOES NOT flow more than a drain that has 5 feet of water above the drain valve. It has the SAME flow. Yet we say a siphon drains water faster. But it important to compare apples to apples and look at the height of the water column driving the system. 6 inches versus 5 feet.
So a siphon is a bent tube that allows us to "lift" water above a level. But air getting in decreases the weight of the water column and will eventually break flow. A drain just drains.
The difference with Dursos and other stand pipe with u tubes at the end it that you need the air break in there to prevent a siphon action. Because at one point the tube overflows with air, but then it gets so full and all of a sudden flows a LOT more because a siphon. And it will continue to go back and forth like that. How ever... you are going from a head pressure of 2 inches, to all of a sudden 5 feet when the siphon begins. Then it cycles back and forth. So you need the siphon break to allow air to allow the pipe just to overflow.
Now.... does any of that help??? I mean that sincerely.
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PowermanKW
New member
Sorry for the long example, hope it helped.
jeninjohnk
New member
set-up my tank a year ago w herbie's method-- and all i can say is--it is DEAD SILENT. have to do little adjustments after a water change but your talking less than 2 min. to get it quiet again--Never had any prblems after a power outage other than making the small adjustments to quiet it up. thanks herbie!!
PowermanKW
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14513042#post14513042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PowermanKW
Never mind. Took a shot in the dark. For future interest.
My skimmer section is 3 inches or so lower than my fuge.
When I turned everything on My skimmer section actually siphoned out the fuge section. I placed my gate valve BEFORE the tee to my fuge. I didn't want the fuge to effect my level tuning of the overflow. However, since there is no air, it created a siphon.
I tried everything, but at the end of the day, I still had noise and bubbles.
I decided to put the gate valve AFTER the tee for my fuge.
***DISCLAIMER***
If you don't have a split return, you don't have to worry about this. Since I do it is a problem. I have a very low flow to my fuge, so I didn't think it would affect tuning that much. If you have a very high flow through your split, this might not work out so well for you.
Any way..... It is BRILIANT!!!
All good. No siphon. Works as advertised. Completely silent, and not hard to tune at all.
The above is what I did to split my drain to my fuge and sump. A few posts back I mistakenly said my gate valve was in the wrong place. Just so I don't confuse anyone.... the above is what happened and how I fixed it to split my drain. Sorry if I confused anyone.
JTL
New member
The more I read the more confused I get. Is Bean's method really a siphon? If it so is the due to using a down turned street ell? Does Bean's approach move more water then Herbie's assuming the same size bulk head and the same size pipe. Say 1" BH and 1 1/2" pipe and fittings? I have been under the assumption that the major difference between Bean and Herbie is the addition of a third "safety" drain. Trying to get this right.
PowermanKW
New member
My opinion is that talking about Bean's design in this thread confuses the Herbie method. Bean's does indeed siphon, Herbie does not. Hopefully you read my long winded explanation above.
To answer your question.... Bean's siphon does not move more water than the Herbie. It moves the same with the same piping and the same distance between overflow level and sump level. See my long winded example above.
The major difference is between the two is that the Herbie is designed for pre drilled "reef ready" tanks. Bean's design is completely custom job utilizing a coast to coast overflow and custom drilled holes in the tank.
I do believe Bean's is a superior design with much more safety built it. However, Herbie is an excellent setup for pre drilled tanks that has plenty of safety built in for me to sleep peacefully.
Hookup
New member
Not sure I agree, but i'm often wrong.
Both methods are about one simple concept.
Noise reduction... Period. If you do not care about noise, then put in a single 4" diamater pipe, or a bunch of 1" pipes, etc... it's easy to get water to your sump if you do not care about noise.
The quitest possible solution will be a pipe with no air and all water... a 100% flooded pipe. The second quitest pipe in the world will be a pipe with very little water and lots of air... the water sticks to the outside of the pipe, the air is in the middle... so long as the flow of water is low enough, this system stays put and it's pretty darn quite. As the flow increases, the friction between the water and the air causes "waves" and creates crashign noises... so the flow needs to be low...
If you can use either of those "noiseless" situations, you've achieved success, from a managing noise perspective.
The challange is simply that the amount of water returning to your system is unknown and difficult to pin-point. It also might change slightly throughout the life of the tank.
This challange, makes creating a single "flooded" pipe next to impossible. It therefore leaves us with a two options... Just use the low-flow trickle system that is virtually silent, or use a combination of both... Herbie, posted first, that using a combination could work most effecitvely. Bean just cleaned it up and made that info a bit more digestable.
Both Bean & Herbie systems simpy combine those two noise-reduction methods to create a managed tank-to-sump water flowing system.
One pipe is running full of water, call that a flooded pipe. This pipe is "tuned" via a gate valve, where in you are trying to closely match the volume of water coming back to your tank via the return pump but not trying to go over.. so it must run at .... (return pump volume)gph - (some small percentage)... but also must remaine 100% flooded for a noiseless state to be acchieved.
The second pipe is running at a very low flow rate. This pipe is not tuned, but simply catches any "extra" water that the other pipe could not handle... Over time, if things shift, this pipe will switch between low-flow with air, and no-air... which will create a very loud gurgle noise... letting you know something's up.
The fact that this might be in a box or in a pre-drilled tank, or anything like that seems irrelevant. The fact that one design has a bend in the pipe and the other doesn't is again, not really relevant.
The concept is identical, one fully flooded drain-line and one low-flow drain line tuned to match your return line volume. (Bean added a 3rd pipe for extra-extra saftey is all)
The thing to realize, is that all of the PIPES in my above laymans description are simply between the tank and the sump... how you get your FLOODED PIPE FLOODED and your LOW FLOW PIPE with LOW FLOW is up to you. Coast-to-COast, interal boxes, or free-standing center fo tank drilled pipes all can work... and all have different surface skimming advantages and disadvantages... but these designs are about noise...
Simple right?
Both methods are about one simple concept.
Noise reduction... Period. If you do not care about noise, then put in a single 4" diamater pipe, or a bunch of 1" pipes, etc... it's easy to get water to your sump if you do not care about noise.
The quitest possible solution will be a pipe with no air and all water... a 100% flooded pipe. The second quitest pipe in the world will be a pipe with very little water and lots of air... the water sticks to the outside of the pipe, the air is in the middle... so long as the flow of water is low enough, this system stays put and it's pretty darn quite. As the flow increases, the friction between the water and the air causes "waves" and creates crashign noises... so the flow needs to be low...
If you can use either of those "noiseless" situations, you've achieved success, from a managing noise perspective.
The challange is simply that the amount of water returning to your system is unknown and difficult to pin-point. It also might change slightly throughout the life of the tank.
This challange, makes creating a single "flooded" pipe next to impossible. It therefore leaves us with a two options... Just use the low-flow trickle system that is virtually silent, or use a combination of both... Herbie, posted first, that using a combination could work most effecitvely. Bean just cleaned it up and made that info a bit more digestable.
Both Bean & Herbie systems simpy combine those two noise-reduction methods to create a managed tank-to-sump water flowing system.
One pipe is running full of water, call that a flooded pipe. This pipe is "tuned" via a gate valve, where in you are trying to closely match the volume of water coming back to your tank via the return pump but not trying to go over.. so it must run at .... (return pump volume)gph - (some small percentage)... but also must remaine 100% flooded for a noiseless state to be acchieved.
The second pipe is running at a very low flow rate. This pipe is not tuned, but simply catches any "extra" water that the other pipe could not handle... Over time, if things shift, this pipe will switch between low-flow with air, and no-air... which will create a very loud gurgle noise... letting you know something's up.
The fact that this might be in a box or in a pre-drilled tank, or anything like that seems irrelevant. The fact that one design has a bend in the pipe and the other doesn't is again, not really relevant.
The concept is identical, one fully flooded drain-line and one low-flow drain line tuned to match your return line volume. (Bean added a 3rd pipe for extra-extra saftey is all)
The thing to realize, is that all of the PIPES in my above laymans description are simply between the tank and the sump... how you get your FLOODED PIPE FLOODED and your LOW FLOW PIPE with LOW FLOW is up to you. Coast-to-COast, interal boxes, or free-standing center fo tank drilled pipes all can work... and all have different surface skimming advantages and disadvantages... but these designs are about noise...
Simple right?
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PowermanKW
New member
Good explanation.
The above is quite simply... false.
Herbie's use of a pre drilled tank is quite relevant because that is what it is for. He only had two holes to work with and a overflow box. He ran the return line over the back. The depth of the overflow box to the bottom of the tank is what gives the Herbie it's ability to account for variance in flows. That can't be achieved using a short overflow box.
It is a critical aspect of Herbie's design that as the overflow box water level get higher it will flow more water until a equilibrium is reached between valve opening and amount of head pressure above it driving flow.
Herbie's design does not utilize a a low flow pipe. There is the "normal" drain, and the "emergency" drain. The normal drain matches the return flow by the fact that differences in head pressure flows more water. It is self adjusting once it is put in range with the gate valve. The "emergency" drain is not meant to be used for a low flow pipe such as Bean's. It is for emergency and all that capacity needs to be kept in reserved. Some people that use ball valves use the emergency for low flow pipe to make things easier for them, but that does not change what the system was designed for in the first place.
Bean's design uses a true siphon, and as such, it will not have a significant ability to vary flow because of the short coast to coast overflow box. Bean's design MUST use a low flow pipe to account for variance in flows from sump to tank.
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PowermanKW
New member
There is no gain by it and in fact you are taking away from the well designed system.
Hookup
New member
You guys are getting way too hung up on siphon vs drain... it's pointless really... Drain is a layman term to mean anything that removes water from a container... period... siphon is a type of drain..
The pre-drilled vs custom doesn't really seem to be part of the equation.. everyone is working with limitations... both systems work, pick whichever.
I'm 'right now' re-reading herbies design (page 1 & 2) again to ensure i understood it clearly... if I read your comments correctly, i guess I didn't.
The pre-drilled vs custom doesn't really seem to be part of the equation.. everyone is working with limitations... both systems work, pick whichever.
I'm 'right now' re-reading herbies design (page 1 & 2) again to ensure i understood it clearly... if I read your comments correctly, i guess I didn't.
Hookup
New member
I stand corrected on the Herbie system.. As you say, and Herbie said, the second line is just for emergency, the pressure created within the overflow box/area is used to balance the input and output flow of the flooded down-line...
That is a key difference, I admit.
At the end, i'll go back to the part we agree upon, the entire system is about reducing noise to undetectable levels which can only be done two ways as previously described.
I would submit then the HOOKUP system.. LOL (yeah right).. is a Beananimal system setup in Herbie style where the herbie emergency pipe is used as a trickle flow pipe to help balance the system further... rather than rely on head-pressure created within the overflow box.
However, just focusing on the original point I was trying to make, it's all about reducing noise, and there's only two ways (that I know of) to do that... any combination of each that gets the job done is simply a preference IMO.
That is a key difference, I admit.
At the end, i'll go back to the part we agree upon, the entire system is about reducing noise to undetectable levels which can only be done two ways as previously described.
I would submit then the HOOKUP system.. LOL (yeah right).. is a Beananimal system setup in Herbie style where the herbie emergency pipe is used as a trickle flow pipe to help balance the system further... rather than rely on head-pressure created within the overflow box.
However, just focusing on the original point I was trying to make, it's all about reducing noise, and there's only two ways (that I know of) to do that... any combination of each that gets the job done is simply a preference IMO.
PowermanKW
New member
Cool
No argument there. It isn't rocket science, and as you explained very well, there are only two ways to do it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15701116#post15701116 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hookup I would submit then the HOOKUP system.. LOL (yeah right).. is a Beananimal system setup in Herbie style where the herbie emergency pipe is used as a trickle flow pipe to help balance the system further... rather than rely on head-pressure created within the overflow box.
And you would not be the only one that runs it that way. I feel it is only important to mention as a deviation... so people understand the original intent, and what the modified operation will do to the system. Many people run the level to just a trickle down the "emergency" drain.
Yep.
PowermanKW
New member
Trust me... I wish siphons were not discussed in this thread.... but it is unavoidable.
I do feel the the hole arrangement is important. A reef ready tank is used by probably 75% of this hobby. Very easily attainable and if that is what you have, then you too can employ a way to have a silent overflow using the methods you explained above. I have a RR and I love my Herbie. Very easy to incorporate.
Having said that.... The Bean is simply superior due to it's triple redundant safety and even less tuning. In the future, I want a custom tank and I want to do a Bean. A coast to coast Calfo overflow is superior..... but it is critical to understand that the Bean design NEEDS 3 holes drilled in the top back of the tank. It is a true overflow and not a siphon over the back of the tank. Much more reliable like that, and no holes in the bottom of the tank to leak. So not just anyone is going to be willing to do that.
But in the end I absolutely agree..... filled pipe, or small trickle flow down the walls. Only way to do, and both systems incorporate it.
hello everyone... (my first post) been reading though the herbie threads.. and it seems there is alot of it... great thread though!!!
i am planing to incorporate herbie's method, but had a few questions..
has any one tried to split the main drain pipe (not the emergency pipe) into two ie... one going to left side of the sump (skimmer) and the other going to the right (refuge)...
just wondering if there is any considerations i should have?? for example if i am using a 1.5" drain pipe with a gate valve, then having it split into two. what size of pvc should i use after the split, ,,,1/2" , 1", 1.5".. does it matter.. and should i also attach an additional gate valve on the side to the refuge??? thanks
i am planing to incorporate herbie's method, but had a few questions..
has any one tried to split the main drain pipe (not the emergency pipe) into two ie... one going to left side of the sump (skimmer) and the other going to the right (refuge)...
just wondering if there is any considerations i should have?? for example if i am using a 1.5" drain pipe with a gate valve, then having it split into two. what size of pvc should i use after the split, ,,,1/2" , 1", 1.5".. does it matter.. and should i also attach an additional gate valve on the side to the refuge??? thanks
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