PowermanKW
New member
Do you have 2 overflows?
I split my single overflow to my fuge. I use a gate valve for my main overflow, and a ball valve off for my fuge. I would not use a ball valve on my main overflow.
NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!
- Thread starter Herbie
- Start date
Do you have 2 overflows?
I split my single overflow to my fuge. I use a gate valve for my main overflow, and a ball valve off for my fuge. I would not use a ball valve on my main overflow.
Edward Smith
Active member
Herbie! I only got one thing to say to you buddy!!!!!!!!!
YOU RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:smokin:
YOU RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:smokin:
dzhuo
Active member
OK. I will admit that I didn't read all 36 pages of this thread...
I just set up a Herbie overflow today for my 150g, it's really quiet and I am liking it a lot. Since I am new to plumbing and overflow in general, I don't seem to be able to match the return and overflow in exact GPH. If the return is too much, it drains the sump and overflow the display tank. If the return is not enough, the overflow can't maintain a siphon which makes lots of noise as it sucks the air.
How do you guys maintain the balance of GPH between the overflow and return without constantly adjusting the ball value?
I just set up a Herbie overflow today for my 150g, it's really quiet and I am liking it a lot. Since I am new to plumbing and overflow in general, I don't seem to be able to match the return and overflow in exact GPH. If the return is too much, it drains the sump and overflow the display tank. If the return is not enough, the overflow can't maintain a siphon which makes lots of noise as it sucks the air.
How do you guys maintain the balance of GPH between the overflow and return without constantly adjusting the ball value?
Edward Smith
Active member
I would think using a "Ball valve" would be tough. Finding the sweet spot on my system required some real fine tuning. I dont think it could of been done without a gate valve?
Beenalongtime79
New member
Definitely use a gate valve on the drain since that will just make fine tuning that much easier. Also, do you have a backup overflow drain.... b/c if you don't, definitely do not use this method as you are just asking for a flood.
My backup overflow drain has saved my butt a few times since I started implementing this method.
Cheers,
John
Halfmoon61
New member
A return pump rated at less GPH than the overflow drains can handle. HTH
Halfmoon61
New member
Been awhile since I've read up on this thread, I think one stand pipe creates a siphon and the other is like a durso, not a true siphon. I'd have to refresh my memory, what I suggested works well with what I do, which is just two durso standpipes.
dzhuo
Active member
So I re-read Herbie's original description. Is this the key?
That is because at a slightly higher water level there is MORE head pressure pushing the the water down the return at a higher rate. WOW...........That is HUGE !!!!!
So it seems like in Herbie's original design, the return GPH is slightly higher than the overflow drain capacity, not less. Is this correct?
Another concern or confusion I have is if the return has more GPH, wouldn't it cause the sump level to temp drop and cause the ATO to kick in?
That is because at a slightly higher water level there is MORE head pressure pushing the the water down the return at a higher rate. WOW...........That is HUGE !!!!!
So it seems like in Herbie's original design, the return GPH is slightly higher than the overflow drain capacity, not less. Is this correct?
Another concern or confusion I have is if the return has more GPH, wouldn't it cause the sump level to temp drop and cause the ATO to kick in?
Beenalongtime79
New member
So, ultimately, you actually want a pump that will of course put out less than what can be drained with your stand pipe if fully opened. Otherwise this method can't work since even with your gate valve/ball valve wide open, the pump would outstrip the drain, so this definitely requires that your pump put out less than your drain can handle at max. The ball valve is just much harder to adjust and a gate valve will give you much finer adjustments so that you can hit that sweet spot. The greater the height difference between your backup drain and your primary drain, the larger the sweet spot since you can have a larger variation in overflow area height.
Also, once this method reaches equilibrium, it is rock solid stable.
I have an ATO with latching relay so I will have a variation of water level of about 2 inches in my last sump chamber and of course this varies the level in my overflow area as water is slowly evaporated from the tank, but I have about 5 inches between the height of my drain and my backup drain so that as the water varies through the day, the water level never gets low enough in my overflow area that the main drain entrains air.
Cheers,
John
Also, once this method reaches equilibrium, it is rock solid stable.
I have an ATO with latching relay so I will have a variation of water level of about 2 inches in my last sump chamber and of course this varies the level in my overflow area as water is slowly evaporated from the tank, but I have about 5 inches between the height of my drain and my backup drain so that as the water varies through the day, the water level never gets low enough in my overflow area that the main drain entrains air.
Cheers,
John
dzhuo
Active member
John,
So the return does have to slightly larger than the primary drain. So when the GPH is larger than the primary drain, the backup drain kicks in. As long as the return is just a tiny bit larger than the primary drain, only a very small amount of water will go through the back up drain which won't cause much noise. Is this the concept?
I just don't see anyway you can make an exact GPH match between the return and the primary drain alone so you don't need the back up.
So the return does have to slightly larger than the primary drain. So when the GPH is larger than the primary drain, the backup drain kicks in. As long as the return is just a tiny bit larger than the primary drain, only a very small amount of water will go through the back up drain which won't cause much noise. Is this the concept?
I just don't see anyway you can make an exact GPH match between the return and the primary drain alone so you don't need the back up.
PowermanKW
New member
You seem to be making this harder than it needs be. This system is "self regulating" once you get it in the "ball park" with the gate valve. Some people get lucky enough to have the sweet spot just right on a ball valve, but on my system, there is no way I could get mine right with a ball valve. A gate valve is crucial for proper operation. Without a gate valve, all you will do is go too high or too low. That is what I think is causing your confusion. All you see is too high or too low.
Most drilled tanks using this set up use the "large" "drain" bulkhead fitting for the "primary" drain, and the small bulkhead fitting, that used to be the return line, as the "emergency" drain. The primary drain does all the work, and is adjusted with the gate valve. My inlet holes go down about half way into my overflow box.
With the gate valve full open, the primary drain is just a surface overflow. Draining water off the surface of the overflow compartment at the lowest inlet to the pipe. Close down on the gate valve. Now you have restricted flow. It can't drain as much. The water level starts to rise in the overflow box. It starts filling the pipe. Now the primary drain line is full of water from the surface of the overflow level, to the gate valve. As the water level continues to rise, it now has more head pressure.It now forces more water through the gate valve. It now finds a equilibrium with head pressure, water level, and gate valve opening. This is what you are not getting.
Now, close the gate valve a little more. Water level in the overflow get higher. More head pressure, higher flow through the slightly more closed gate valve, new equilibrium. Now close it a little more. Water level rises, yet now you are getting to the top of your tank. You set the "Emergency" drain level, to the highest place you want your water level in your tank. Water level continues up gets to the emergency drain stand pipe level, starts taking the water that the primary can't handle.
I have a bout 6-7 inches in my overflow box from where my Primary would suck air, to where my emergency will overflow. I adjust my gate to put my water level an inch below emergency. Where my overflow goes in my sump is baffled to 10 inches. Meaning my overflow compartment stays a constant 10 inches regardless of evaporation. My ATO keeps my return chamber whereI want it. My Herbei is set and forget. I can put it where ever I want and forget about it.
Does that help?
dzhuo
Active member
PowermanKW,
Yes that helped. I think one of the problem is since my overflow box is external (my tank is custom made) and isn't very tall, it doesn't have a lot of vertical space to create more head pressure as the overflow box continue to fill up. I have to measure it but I think my overflow box is only 7" tall or so.
To make things worse, I totally made the mistake of not using gate valves, I used ball valve everywhere and if I want to change it out, I will have to cut the plumbing in order to do so.
Do you think I can still use Herbie's design?
Yes that helped. I think one of the problem is since my overflow box is external (my tank is custom made) and isn't very tall, it doesn't have a lot of vertical space to create more head pressure as the overflow box continue to fill up. I have to measure it but I think my overflow box is only 7" tall or so.
To make things worse, I totally made the mistake of not using gate valves, I used ball valve everywhere and if I want to change it out, I will have to cut the plumbing in order to do so.
Do you think I can still use Herbie's design?
PowermanKW
New member
That is going to make it tough. Do you use a siphon over flow into the box?
Do you have a ball valve on your return pump discharge? You could try to get your primary drain level close, then fine tune with the return pump discharge valve. That might have a little better control. Something to try.
Do you have a ball valve on your return pump discharge? You could try to get your primary drain level close, then fine tune with the return pump discharge valve. That might have a little better control. Something to try.
dzhuo
Active member
I have a ball valve on the return pump. But like everyone mention, it's super difficult to adjust. I can fine tune it to a point where I don't see much up and down in the overflow box for like a hour but that's as good as I can do.
Can someone confirm whether only having 7" or of vertical space in the overflow box is not enough to create high enough head pressure to handle the drain?
What about the idea just having any extra water (just a very small amount) going down the back up drain? Has anyone try it and is it noise?
Can someone confirm whether only having 7" or of vertical space in the overflow box is not enough to create high enough head pressure to handle the drain?
What about the idea just having any extra water (just a very small amount) going down the back up drain? Has anyone try it and is it noise?
PowermanKW
New member
So you have a ball valve on your pump, and a ball bvalve on your primary drain right.
And your overflow box is external. Is your tank drilled, or are you using a siphon?
Many people allow the water level to be barley over the emergency drain. They let a small amount of water go down the emergency as another level of regulation. If it isn't much, it won't make much noise. Enough to fill the line up though and start gurgling is too much as far as noise.
And your overflow box is external. Is your tank drilled, or are you using a siphon?
Many people allow the water level to be barley over the emergency drain. They let a small amount of water go down the emergency as another level of regulation. If it isn't much, it won't make much noise. Enough to fill the line up though and start gurgling is too much as far as noise.
dzhuo
Active member
Yes I have ball valve on my return and drain. My overflow box is external but I am not using a siphon. The overflow is a toothless style. My tank is not drilled at all, no holes anywhere.
OK. I will give this a try and use the back up to handle the extra. I will try to get it as small as possible to minimize noise.
This is going to be tough but that's because I made the ball valve mistake. BTW, my tank is empty now so if I really want to, I can cut the plumbing and start over.
Do you think it's worth it?
OK. I will give this a try and use the back up to handle the extra. I will try to get it as small as possible to minimize noise.
This is going to be tough but that's because I made the ball valve mistake. BTW, my tank is empty now so if I really want to, I can cut the plumbing and start over.
Do you think it's worth it?
PowermanKW
New member
I had to order my gate valve on line. Get a screw fitting in case you need to change it in the future.
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