NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[ErikS]

Have you ever done a water change before and used a hose to siphon water into a bucket? No air in there, is there? If there was, you wouldnt have a siphon at all. If the end of the siphon hose is held under water on both ends, there is no noise right? AND the water would still flow at the highest rate because there is NO AIR in the line!

That's exactly it, an overflow IS NOT a siphon. The speed of the water through a siphon is limited by the size of the pipe & the distance of the drop. In the case of an overflow you are actually forcing the water through the pipe - this requires air. If you're running the water at the speed of a 1" pipe dropping 2' then you're not running much water through the system (which is exactly what I said)

Restricting the drain line to tune a stand pipe is not new. Adding a safety overflow is the new part that I have not seen

I'll agree on that one, restrict the overflow, reduces the amount of air required, reduce the noise. As long as you don't dial it back beyond the amount of water coming into the tank life is good. The emergency isn't a bad thing, if the main gets blocked then it will take over.

The overflow is getting air into it....its open. You are not talking about a closed box.

No, I said that the system IS getting air (it has to or it won't function). He's the one that said "no air", which is not possible.


It's apparent you undertand neither physics or plumbing. It's not better than a stockman or duso, all that going on is slowing the speed at which the water hits the sump = okay for low flow.

 

[jersey]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think it will work as long as the pipe is large enough to handle the flow.

I would not feel comfortable restricting my overflow unless there was a backup drain line.

Herbie, have you tried just using a durso? The reason I ask is because I use two in my 120 and I can barely hear any water noise.

 

[MiddletonMark]

Exactly, I think I'm also misunderstanding where all this noise is really coming from. My durso drops water maybe a couple inches at most ... no gurgling there.

Not to doubt your gurgling drains at all ... just wonder why one of the more common fixes couldn't do it. My durso is pretty darn silent [a lot quieter than my pumps and for sure the skimmer!]

 

[MrSandman]

I also don't get it. If you look at your standpipe in your overflow box, it looks like the water level is about 4 inches below the teeth of the overflow. That alone would cause some splashing sounds.

I think everyone agrees that the durso will successfully silence your overflows. The issue here is silencing your sump.

I've managed to do that just by how trilinearmipmap stated above. The water from my overflows drops down in my sump below the water level of the sump. I have a Tee fitting that elbows upwards which is exposed to the air. When the water (full of air from the durso) comes rushing down the overflow pipe, it enters below the water line in the sump. The Tee which is incorporated into the plumbing bleeds off that extra air into the atmosphere. The tank is dead silent (both at the overflow and at the sump) and i didn't even have to drill a 2nd bulkhead in my overflow.

 

[lilbuddy]

mrsandman,
I looked at your site to look for how you silence your water coming from the tank to the sump. I think Im doing the same thing as you with the T's but wanted to make sure. I just have my pvc lines running below my water line and then a T on the end of the line...

Herbie
I too do not really understand this idea. I say kudos to you for having an idea and sharing it with us but I dont see how you do not have noise in your overflow with the water falling over the sides...I run dursos on my tank and dont have air problems. I did at first but it takes some work to get them where you want them. I think the stockman standpipe is a great idea too and will probably try that stand pipe on a new prop tank I will have up soon to see how it compares with the durso.

again thanks for taking the time to explain your idea to us and if it works for you thats great. I hope you can see where we are all coming from and hope you understand.

 

[MrSandman]

lilbuddy,

My website doesn't show the sump end of things. However, it does show the overflow part which is simply a durso standpipe.

 

[lilbuddy]

was i right in thinking you basically just have your intake lines t'd off at the bottom under the water?

tia

 

[bigduke]

trilinearmipmap and MrSandman, do either of you have a close up pic of how you plumbed your drain into the sump? I have a similar issue with a durso that is silent but the splashing/gurgling into the sump could be quieted. I'd like to get an idea of where you plumbed the T in regards to water level and if you have an elbow on the T pointing back up for the air to escape.
Nice job Herbie and thanks for sharing.

 

[trilinearmipmap]

First of all Herbie's idea is great. I am ordering a new 120 in the next few days, I will set it up with the standard Durso method but if I get noise in the sump I will consider Herbie's method.

I don't have any sump pictures to post because I am one of those people who have studied their reef tank to death without actually starting it yet. After more than a year of reading the different forums I am finally getting my tank. I have fw plant tanks though which are sumpless.

I think most people from what I have read don't have a big issue with noise in their sump however everyone's situation is different, different overflow sizes, different sump volumes, different return pumps, different height from top of overflow to stand, and different flow rates. So I don't think you can generalize and say that one method will work for everyone.

Also everyone's definition of silence is different. Some of us have very sensitive hearing and a slight noise (like my computer fan noise right now) sounds like a roar. Others who are a little hard of hearing may not notice the noise from their tank.

Anyway the main reason I don't try Herbie's idea right away is I think I can get pretty close to silent using standard methods, and Herbie's method looks like it would take more time and effort to set up. As for air getting into the standpipes using Herbie's method, it won't. The top of the standpipe is under several inches of water, the outflow into the sump is under several inches of water, how could the air get in? Herbie's method should allow for higher flow rates through a given size pipe, because only water, and no air, would flow through the pipe, and the flow would be more linear, rather than turbulent sloshing flow from a mixture of air and water.

Anyway excellent idea Herbie, I will use it if standard methods don't give me a quiet enough system.

 

[perpetual98]

Tagging along I'm interested in some Tee pictures in the sump as well. I think I understand the concept, just wanting to make sure.

Eric

 

[MrSandman]

I totally forgot to take a picture when i got home last night. Anyways, i did a quick sketch for everyone to see. Hope this clears it up some.

 

[mjw357]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think it will work as long as the pipe is large enough to handle the flow.

yes, all he is doing is restricting the flow enough with the valve to keep the water level a little above the top of the pipe.

Originally posted by EricS
That's exactly it, an overflow IS NOT a siphon.

I think he was just making a comparison to show that water flowing out of a hose uninterrupted by air is very quiet.

Originally posted by EricS

quote:
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The overflow is getting air into it....its open. You are not talking about a closed box.
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No, I said that the system IS getting air (it has to or it won't function). He's the one that said "no air", which is not possible.

you are bickering over the wording. there is no air flowing through the drain, it is a solid column of water. the reason it works is because the air pressure is the same at the overflow box and at the outlet.

 

[atrain]

Regardless of whether or not people chose to use this method should be irrelavent. Herbie has found a method of keeping his tank silent and has shared it with everyone. Taking the time for the long posts as well as the follow-ups with pictures and discussion and with ethusiasm as well If this works for one person or more, we should all be thankful ,and maybe discuss other points (i.e. the tee fitting at the bottom of the sump etc) in helping reduce sound from overflow and/or sump, rather than arguing about the point as mjw357 has shown regarding the wording.

 

[trilinearmipmap]

Yeah, what he said.

 

[john rochon]

This is very cool but nothing really new. People do this alot using just a strainer on a bulkhead and making sure the water level is always covering the strainer completely. Be it with a oversized pump dialed back or a gate valve on the drain line. The thing here is that having an ''extra'' return line is a good idea because without any air being intriduced into the lines you could get fluctuations when sump levels rise and fall even in the slightest.
You also lose the ability of good flow unless you drill your drains according larger! because no air, less flos. even toilets are vented just for that reason. Its a very good idea in principal but you'll need extra big bulkheads and drain lines to compensate for lack of flow. I think the idea is very doable and I will be doing something similar with my 500g with the ''emergency extra drain'' bieng in a seperate chamber that when and if the water rises to much in the box it will flow to another compartment in the box slightly elevated and down the emergency drain. Doubt I'll ever need it thow

 

[mjw357]

because no air, less flos. even toilets are vented just for that reason.

again, we are confusing this with a sealed system.

all plumbing drains need vents because they all have traps filled with water. a toilet is just a big trap/siphon that flushes when it is overfilled with water. when the water goes down the drain it pulls air down with it, because it fills the pipe and acts like a piston. if there was no vent, the trap would gurgle as air was pulled through it.

overflows are not siphons, they are simply gravity drains that are open to the atmosphere at both ends. they will drain as fast as gravity will allow through the pipes provided.

 

[ReeferAl]

Herbie,
FWIW, I found your description quite clear (long but clear). If I didn't have my sump in a back room where noise doesn't matter I might give it a try. Great idea!
Allen

 

[Herbie]

O.K. .........Here Goes.
I only posted this "idea" because I felt I may be able to help anyone who has tried a lot of things to quiet down there system but has come up short, like myself. I have a box FULL of pvc fittings and I have cut and glued more PVC in the past month than I would like to think of. I have made a FEW durso standpipes and I did say that they worked GREAT for quieting down the overflow box. My issue was with the water/air noise in the sump. Looking at the number of views this thread has, there is at least some interest in this topic!
On the other hand. I DID NOT intend this "idea" to be big debate on the dynamics of fluid hydraulics! Its QUIET,safe and it works! I see no reason why some feel that this has to be only a low flow set-up. This method will work with as much water flow as the original open stand piped overflow box would, because thats what it is! Just without air IN the drainline/standpipe, keeping the water noise to a minimum. Yes this system needs air to work, but there is no air getting in the drain line. To even compare our systems to a household plumbing system is silly. Lets not bicker about the wording. Also the sump water level has little effect on the level of water in the overflow box. I have tried it.
So for everyone who this has helped, even just the emergency return idea..........thats great, thats why we are all here! If nobody had a new way of thinking once in a while, our hobby (passion) would never advance. Just think.......we would all still be running undergravel filters and incandesant lighting!!!
Cheers.............Herbie

 

[Robbob29]

Just wanted to thank you Herbie for the great idea, I just went over and closed my valve on my stand pipe and noticed the difference, wow. I am using the return in my tank now so I will have to wait till the weekend to take it out and make the emergancy over flow. I opened it back up and the noise just started right back up. I will leave it open till the weekend.

I don't know if I will be able to sleep with the tank that quiet, been living with the noise for about a year. can't wait to try it.

Rob

 

[in2deep]

I did this exact same thing a year ago to my 90 gallon tank and it works like a charm and although i used the homemade durso's with mine it still worked perfectly since the ball valve (gate valve works even better) allows total control of the flow and noise. Herbie did you mention there is such thing as a 3/4 inch bulkhead that would accomodate 1 inch pipe so that the emergency overflow would hanle more flow? I have been wondering the same thing to increase the flow in the smaller pipe just in case.