New RANDY's 2 part

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11675224#post11675224 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I replied to the other thread. :)

Sorry about that im on a really slow hotel link and I dident check - race condition!

Actually while im here in this thread, it might be a good time to ask another question I had while reading one of Randys howtos.

Regarding the magnesium, and the sulphate elevation from dosing magnesium sulphate (which is easy to get food grade), it occured to me that one could precipitate some of the sulphate out before adding to the aquarium by adding some calcium salt (like chloride)? Thus turning the magnesium sulphate into magnesium chloride.

As I say im not a chemist but I believe that adding a dissolved calcium salt to a dissolved sulphate will cause calcium sulphate to precipitate out - its very low in solubility I thought.

Couldent one just knock some of the sulphate out of the solution with this method? Bringing the sulphate / chloride ratio to what is desired?
 
That's an interesting idea. Yes, you could precipitate some calcium sulfate by adding calcium chloride to magnesium sulfate. I think that already happens a bit when folks combine magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloride, since the mag chloride has some calcium in it.

It might take a fair amount of experimenting to determine how much to add to get a reproducible solution.

Getting magnesium chloride may be easier for many, but perhaps not everyone can get it easily.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11676612#post11676612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
That's an interesting idea. Yes, you could precipitate some calcium sulfate by adding calcium chloride to magnesium sulfate. I think that already happens a bit when folks combine magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloride, since the mag chloride has some calcium in it.

It might take a fair amount of experimenting to determine how much to add to get a reproducible solution.

Getting magnesium chloride may be easier for many, but perhaps not everyone can get it easily.

I'll give it a go when I get back then. Would I be right in saying that accuratly weighing the calcium chloride and magnesium might be difficult because of the fact that I dont know what hydration state they are in? Would it work to bake them individually in the oven to remove this and if so whats a safe but effective temperature to use? And although I know this is a bit of a difficult question to answer but how pure is my calcium chloride from a food supplier likely to be?

As I say I have magnesium sulphate from a brewing supplier and Ca chloride from a food wholesaler but getting anything from merck nowadays seems virtually impossible which is a big pain. Have investigated getting set up as a business to do it but its a lot of hassle. Are there any other UK aquarium tinkerers on the board that might know any sources of these things? Also want some strontium (of any kind).
 
I think the biggest concern for the home DIYer (aside from starting purity) is the fact that they can do volume but not mass, so since bulk density varies, they do not usually have a good way to measure exact volumes of different brands of chemicals.

I wouldn't mess with any strontium additions, myself. :)
 
I'm so sorry but every answer I get seems to stimulate another question...

Why would you Randy not dose strontium? Is it not needed in your opinion with decent water changing? Or do you mean you would stick to the off the shelf products?

Is that also the case with Iodine? I remember reading someones article (maybe yours) that I remember stated that the author dident recommend doing iodine.

Whats your opinion (or/and others) on the baking of chemicals to make them weigh more accuratly? Would it work for calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate? Im not sure how well those chemicals hold onto their water.

Also if anyone is looking for accurate scales, I bought an electronics scale recently for 30 pounds (about 50 dollars) from a place called maplin that we have in the UK which weighs to 200g with resolution of 0.01 gram - 10 milligrams. Pretty cool.

Thanks by the way to everyone so far for your help! Hopefully soon I will be able to reciprocate.
 
Why would you Randy not dose strontium? Is it not needed in your opinion with decent water changing? Or do you mean you would stick to the off the shelf products?

I do not think either strontium or iodine supplements have a demonstrated utility. I have dosed them in the past, especially iodine which I dosed for years. I noticed no change on stopping, and there is no literature indication of utility for the organisms that we typically keep.

This article has more:

The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php

from it:



Supplementing Iodine



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many aquarists dose iodine, and claim that certain organisms need it to thrive. Often mentioned are shrimp, Xenia species of soft corals, mushroom corals, and more. However, no evidence for an iodine requirement by these organisms appears anywhere in the scientific literature. They also thrive quite well in many coral reef aquaria where iodine is not dosed. Of Reef Central’s Tanks of the Month for the past couple of years, the majority do not supplement with any form of iodine (or at least do not mention doing so), although some certainly do dose it.

I do not presently dose iodine to my aquarium, and I do not recommend that others do so, either. Iodine dosing is much more complicated than dosing other ions due to its substantial number of different naturally existing forms, the number of different forms that aquarists actually dose, the fact that all of these forms can interconvert in reef aquaria, and the fact that the available test kits detect only a subset of the total forms present. This complexity, coupled with the fact that no commonly kept reef aquarium species are known to require significant iodine, suggests that dosing is unnecessary and problematic. On the other hand, it is nevertheless possible that some organisms that we keep do actually benefit from iodine, and that in some aquaria there is not enough in the foods that we add so that supplements may possibly be beneficial in those aquaria.

I dosed iodine for several years when I first set up my aquarium. I dosed substantial amounts of iodide to try to maintain 0.02 to 0.04 ppm of iodide (which is a natural level). Iodide is rapidly depleted as algae and perhaps other organisms take it up and convert it into organic forms. After a few years of dosing iodide, I became frustrated with the complexities of testing for it, so at that point I stopped dosing any supplemental iodine. That was about seven years ago. I detected no changes in any organisms, and never dosed any again. If you are dosing iodine now, I suggest stopping for a month or two, and seeing if you can objectively detect any difference in any organism.

For these reasons, I especially advise aquarists NOT to try to maintain a specific iodine concentration using supplementation and test kits. For those who do supplement iodine, I suggest iodide as a more suitable form than certain other additives, such as Lugol’s iodine, which is unnatural and potentially more toxic. Iodide is also more readily used than iodate by some organisms, and iodide is detected by both currently available iodine test kits (Seachem and Salifert).

Further information on iodine can be found in these articles:

Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

Iodine in Reef Tanks 2: Effects on Macroalgal Growth
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/chem.htm


Supplementing Strontium



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strontium may or may not be useful in coral reef aquaria, and it may or may not become depleted. Like magnesium, strontium becomes incorporated into calcium carbonate in place of a portion of the calcium ions. That incorporation happens to approximately the same extent whether a coral skeleton is being formed, or an abiotic (nonbiological) precipitate on a pump’s impeller. It is just a fact of life that strontium looks a lot like calcium, so it gets into places where calcium would otherwise be. Some aquarists have concluded that strontium may help corals to deposit their skeletons despite the absence of any evidence of this in the scientific literature, and of any direct experimental evidence (for or against) by hobbyists.

Some hobbyists do report positive effects of dosing strontium. Scientific evidence indicates that some organisms need strontium, albeit not the organisms that most reefkeepers maintain. Certain gastropods, cephalopods and radiolaria, for example, require strontium. There is, however, no clear evidence of any benefit of supplemental strontium in coral reef aquaria.

A few years back, when I tested my aquarium’s water for strontium (using a sophisticated lab machine), I found that in my reef aquarium, with no recent strontium additions, strontium was already elevated (15 ppm) above natural levels (8 ppm). By testing the Instant Ocean salt mix that I was using, I found that it, too, was elevated (15 ppm). I saw no evidence of depletion, at least not when performing my routine of changing 1% of the tank's water daily. I would not like to see the strontium level get any higher, because strontium is known to be toxic to some marine organisms at levels not too far above that. Consequently, adding a supplement without knowing the aquarium's current strontium level is not advisable.

Overall, water changes with a salt mix containing a suitable level of strontium may be the best way to keep strontium at appropriate levels, assuming it has any benefit at all. That requires no testing or worrying about dosages. For those who want to dose strontium, or who have very high calcification rates, which may deplete strontium faster than it can be replaced by water changes, I recommend testing to ensure that it does not get too high. My recommendation is to maintain strontium levels in reef aquaria in the range of 5-15 ppm. That level roughly spans the level in natural seawater of 8 ppm. I do not recommend that aquarists supplement strontium unless they have measured strontium and found it to be depleted below 5 ppm.

These articles have more detailed information on strontium:

Strontium and the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/chem.htm

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm






Whats your opinion (or/and others) on the baking of chemicals to make them weigh more accuratly? Would it work for calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate? Im not sure how well those chemicals hold onto their water.

That probably depends on the chemical, but it might be useful. For calcium chloride, I think the 77-80% in Dowflake is likely as accurate as a home dried version.
 
Randy, how much is your time worth? Im sure if you gave us a set amount we needed to pool together to pay you to do what is necessary to come up with the solution to this porblem we all could chip in to make it worth your time.
 
:lol:

I have less time than money. :D

That said, a study of bromide levels in reef aquaria to see if they ever become elevated, and how fast it is depleted would be interesting for someone to do, and I suggested to someone local who is also a chemist that I'd be happy to help advise on an appropriate protocol if they chose to do it.
 
Lot # cipher/decoder

Lot # cipher/decoder

I purchased a pallet of Peladow, i think i have around 2700 lbs.

I dont know if this was posted yet, but i spoke with a dow rep today and she sent me this. Its a Lot # Decoder for Dow products. She wasnt specific if this was for all Dow products or just Pedalow, which was what i called and asked about.

Hope this helps

All my Peladow is Post Dec 31st 2006 so please dont PM me asking to buy some.


http://dow-gco.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/dow_gco.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3482
 
Randy would the specification on this product be suitable to use in the calcium part of the recipe as dow flake is not available in Australia.
 

Attachments

While it does not test for everything, including the bromide in similarly pure Dow products, it is a high quality product and has a good chance of being OK unless it is actually made by Dow and repackaged. :)
 
It is likely fine. Add it slow the first time since it may have a little bit of ammonia in it (say 0.05 ppm in tank for a 100 ppm rise in magnesium).
 
Does anyone know if hydrochloric acid can be purchased? Randy, maybe you might know of a way we can purchase it? We use a one molar solution of it in chemistry class all the time, but the school might have liscenses or something for it. If we could get some though, it would be easy (as someone from the UK posted above) to mix the HCL with Ca(OH)2, calcium hydroxide or kalk, to create H20(water), Cl-(cloride ions), and Ca2+(calcium ions). This would solve any problems with bromine or any other contaminate in the commercial calcium chloride.
 
Does anyone know if hydrochloric acid can be purchased? Randy, maybe you might know of a way we can purchase it? We use a one molar solution of it in chemistry class all the time, but the school might have liscenses or something for it. If we could get some though, it would be easy (as someone from the UK posted above) to mix the HCL with Ca(OH)2, calcium hydroxide or kalk, to create H20(water), Cl-(cloride ions), and Ca2+(calcium ions). This would solve any problems with bromine or any other contaminate in the commercial calcium chloride.
 
Randy? Just wondering what the reason for the bromide level change was. Did Dow go back to the Solvay process with a new source of mined Limestone with higher bromides? Or change source of brine solution with higher bromide salt levels to produce CaCl.?

Not too much info on Bromides and sea life. But i did find at least one class of snails that concentrate bromine compounds.

http://www.answers.com/topic/tyrian-purple

It seems the ancient Greeks, Phonecians and Romans used the bromine compound in the snails to make a purple dye. I think i also read somewhere that certain kelps and algeas also have higher levels. which as you sugguested might help to mitigate the problem. But I can.t quite find the reference again.
 
Maybe this has been talked about before but could not find any info on it here at RC. We use this in concrete as an admix:

There is nothing complicated about LIQUIDOW * . It is produced from one of Earth’s simple yet valuable resources, natural brine deposits found underground. What happens once it leaves the ground is what makes it special.

Dow processes the brine into an odorless liquid called LIQUIDOW liquid calcium chloride. LIQUIDOW is a hygroscopic solution, which means it attracts moisture from the atmosphere and its surroundings.

LIQUIDOW is the perfect solution for many applications. Spread on unpaved roads, it keeps dust down. Applied to snowy and icy roads, it is a powerful deicer. Mixed with concrete, it accelerates setting time. LIQUIDOW offers you the highest levels of quality, performance, and cost effectiveness.

I know it's made by DOW but would not early batches of this product apply as well?
 
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