New Skimmer – Price is no Object!

Skim Inversely Proportional to Solubility

Skim Inversely Proportional to Solubility

I agree that a single indicator shows only a part of the picture but it may suffice. Suppose your test can measure the concentration of dissolved organic compound, A, that has a solubility of S. If a skimmer can skim A, then it should be able to more readily skim compounds with solubility s < S.
 
Hahaha....

Very nice....

I was hoping for something along the lines of a Donzi meets BMW though... Thats more like hummer meets shimano......
 
Had an idea for skimmer testing...

Maybe we are thinking to broad. Maybe a better idea would be to compare different technologies... to get a broader view. Then, based on the results, we could compare the other skimmers on the market based on their attributes. The hard part might be to agree on which skimmer sizes/designs make the best comparison. How would one size up a 2' needlewheel against a 2' beckett? Or is that even fair?

Still, it might be interesting just to do more basic tests, like a force fed (not for boost, but to keep the airflow constant) 2' tall recirc vs. a 5 or 6' tall one of same diameter. A 2' tall recirc that is 6" or 8" in diameter with 1000lph of air vs. a single pass of the same dimensions, vs. a 'bubble plate' skimmer of larger diameter. A 2' tall, 12" diameter skimmer with 2000lph of air vs. a 8" diameter (1/2 the area) skimmer with 1000lph of air and 4', or even 6' of height.

Bubble plates vs. non bubble plates... on short and tall skimmers.

Beckett vs. needlewheel... short vs. tall... cone vs. cylinder... bubble plate vs. recirc w/ elbow on the output. Those are the real questions we are trying to figure out after all.

As for 'which skimmer', I contacted ATB, and Anton is willing to sell the 'Small' version of his skimmer w/o pump (I have needlewheel/threadwheel eheims), and ship to the US for about $40 euro. He has a 'Medium' version which Flinger wants to get, but if you check out the ATB thread I started, he also makes a 'nano' version... that isnt so nano really. It runs on an eheim 1255 threadwheel. You might want to check it out. The results I have heard from the Austrian and German forums are impressive.
 
Actually, that thing is pretty sick.... $250K..... :D thats a lot of money.....

:lol:

Okay guys, serious now. Lets get back on topic. Enough talk about the wonder mobile I am in search of....
 
Skim the Surface, Skim the Consumer

Skim the Surface, Skim the Consumer

Skimmers have made very little progress in the area of DOC removal. The focus has been on rapidly skimming the easy-to-reach surface proteins. More effort must be directed on:

• Reduced turbulence to keep bubbles from merging or collapsing
• Longer dwell times for proper protein attachment
• Maintaining a gradient for protein collection
• Cheap & reliable tests of skimmer effluent

While these attributes may not rapidly remove surface proteins, they will result in the removal of DOCs that are harder to reach. I’m hoping that some of the technologies developed for freshwater skimming will “trickle down” to saltwater skimming. We must start to demand that skimmers produce higher water purity and not just “skim the surface.” Otherwise, it is only we, the consumer, who is being skimmed.
 
Well... AquaMedic Turboflotor 5000 twin is a 6' tall, 1200lph, 8" diameter monster of a skimmer that is a counter-current (creating almost a downdraft since its in the 1000gph feed range). No bubble plate needed since the pumps are mounted low, and the narrow/tall design eliminates turbulence on its own.

The other option would be to buy a H&S A250 2x1260 that is custom height... like 5-6' tall (which H&S will do), and then force feed it air.

Or, FWIW, Klaus does make custom Bubblekings that are 6' and taller and use White Dragon pumps.

My 'ultimo' skimmer project took a turn. I will most likely be getting a 45" tall cone made/fabricate it myself, 18" base, 8" neck. Then use the 'bubble ball' (less turbulence and more air than a plate) fed by a Laguna 2400 threadwheel on a recirc loop. Tall, beastly, 85-90 watts, wetneck, etc... the works... even a 'halo' shaped inlet spraybar for the input so the incoming water doesnt disrupt the head/column. Should be a fun project. The cone is actually pretty cheap to have done. I was going with 12" cylinder for a while, and an ATI style bubble plate (you might remember some older diagrams), but no more. For smaller ones... the price almost doesnt make sense... but to have the larger ones done, the process is the same... its just a bit more acrylic sheet... which isnt that big of a deal really.

How's that sound pjf?
 
MY .02 is that you have made this much more complicated than it is. You are almost portraying skimmers as part of some large conspiracy to fleece consumers.

This hobby is a VERY SMALL market. I am not sure any company would want to spend the capitol that would be needed to answer the questions you have, let alone develop and market a product at a reasonable price. Especially when there are so many variables as to the measurement of performance.


Long contact time with low turbulence? Tall CC skimmers do a wonderful job.

Your demands are no different than those for more efficient engines and alternative fuels. That market is huge and we still have trouble making progress. It is not an oil conspiracy, for they would profit from anything they could make and sell. It is a lack of affordable technology and R&D. You can draw the same conclusions for our VERY TINY skimmer market.

If you want this to be a theoretical and profound intellectual arguement, then I suppose you can make it into one. I just don't see the point for two reasons. 1) The market is so small. 2) What is being sold now does a decent job.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10663542#post10663542 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Long contact time with low turbulence? Tall CC skimmers do a wonderful job.
Can you give us links to the counter-current skimmers you are recommending? Thanks!
 
Last edited:
I don't know of any large CC skimmers that are currently being sold (there may be some). It would certainly be a DIY project.

I would imagine the main reason is size and maintenance issues.

It takes pressure to push the needed air through the diffusers (be they ceramic or wood). So, a fairly large air pump is needed. As the head height increases, so does dwell time AND the needed pressure to push the air.

The operating criteria are the exact reasons that recirc skimmers have become so popular in favor of CC designs. Folks want an easy to setup and maintain skimmer that takes up as little space as possible.

Try this:

Take all the reef keepers on planet earth
Subtract those that will NEVER use a skimmer
Subtract those that will NEVER pay for a skimmer
Subtract those that will buy whatever is cheap
Subtract those that purchase based on aesthetics or size constraints
Subtract those that are happy with what they have
Subtract those that etc...

You are left with a very small handful of folks that are interested in purchasing a moderate to high end skimmer. Even among that group, it is not "no holds barred" or "price is no object".

As a manufacturer you end up with e VERY SMALL market and prices like Klaus promotes. Are his skimmers $3,000 better than the next guys? No. BUT they ARE better (of not only becuase they are hand crafted and marketed as better) and they ARE not common. He CAN ask that price because it is a very small niche market.

Using what we have established above and what we know about skimmers. I feel confident that you COULD a very good CC skimmer. Say 10" in diameter and 6' tall. Add the features that make it easy to clean and maintain. How many of these things can be sold?

I suppose we may have vastly different perspectives on this subject.
 
Well, I gave a few examples of counter currents that are out there now. Dont get me wrong Bean... you are right... its a small market, and most people may still resort to what fits under their stand. There is little R&D... true. Klaus and Co. are perhaps some of the few that actually spend the time to perfect a design.

I was just thinking that if an independent test were done that clarified, sort of a 'once and for all' comparison between various methods of skimming, that mfg's might take that into consideration... as I know at least some consumers would.

There is a market though... as small as it may be. ORCA will build a 6" diameter, 6-8' tall skimmer if you like, and then you can power it with a single Aquabee and a small linear pump for 700-800lph of air. That would be about 50 watts, and skim like a dog even when the DOC levels are low. H&S can do custom heights, and so can Klaus. The T5000 single and twin models do sell... perhaps better in the EU than here.

But there is something else to consider here. Larger and larger home reefs are getting more common these days. Years ago, a 300g system would have been very rare. Now, there are a few members in every club it seems that are well into the 500g+ range. And there are very few skimmers when you get into this size that will do what they claim. The skimmers are often rated well above their actual capacity, and often just not designed as well as they could be... and why would the companies bother up until now? There has been little demand in the past. But Spazz's Volcano, the ReefFlo... er, rather the Dart Needlewheel, Quad becketts, etc... all signs that there is a market out there that makers havent tapped into yet. Small... oh yeah... but high margins are a given, and if you can afford a 1000g reef, the skimmer is a drop in the bucket. And these people often dont have height restrictions... they have whole rooms or basement sumps where a taller skimmer would be just fine. One guy I know was asking me about drilling a 10" diameter hole in his floor so he could try a 16' tall skimmer body.... from the 9' basement to the overflow level of the tank on the first floor... so he could direct feed the skimmer from the overflow, have a wicked tall skimmer, and be able to change the cup regularly without having to run to the basement. He just wanted to know which Alita he should pick up...lol.

Whats the main reason we would want to do such an experiment? Well... this is a hobby after all.

Another thing to consider: This market, as small as it may be... creates its own demand. You make it, and people will want to try it at least... if not own one. There are guys like Flinger who might as well just be 'high-end skimmer collectors'... lol, and we love 'em for it. You go building some new bubble plate, make some wild claims, improve efficiency, and put a price tag on it... someone will buy it. If it works... then you might have a hard time keeping it in stock. Look at Klaus's operation. Like you said... is it $3000 better...??? Yet somehow people still buy them. The KZ skimmer is a prime example. They took a beckett skimmer, put it into a cone shape body and oriented the injector a bit differently, make up some wild marketing claims, and put a $600 markup on the smallest model... and people are lined up to buy. So if we do the comparison... the demand for results will be there waiting. I mean... years ago, did you ever think people would be lining up to buy '$400 a pop' propeller driven pumps for their tanks? But they made it, and the demand followed. Paying $5000-6000 for a skimmer? Well... if you dont make it, nobody will buy it... but if you do...
 
Last edited:
No skimmer improvement w/o lowering DOCs

No skimmer improvement w/o lowering DOCs

I’m not aware that the simple skimmer tests that I outlined in my previous post (08/27/2007 01:43 PM) are expensive to perform. As for the expense of counter-current skimmers, Aquarium Guys (http://www.aquariumguys.com/proteinskim.html) sells three of them ranging in price from $18.79 to $23.49. They are also more popular than you think. Recirculating skimmers are simply variants of counter-current skimmers.

Historically, skimmers were expected only to remove surface proteins. Placing bigger and more powerful skimmers on a tank simply removes the surface proteins faster. They do not lower DOC concentrations more than the previous skimmer did. Truly improving skimmer performance means to make a skimmer remove more proteins “below the surface.”

If we are not expecting our next skimmer to lower DOC concentrations, then what are we looking for in our next skimmer?
 
I was refering to CC skimmers in the size that would be needed to achieve what you are proposing as [sic] "suitable skimming".

Yes, CC skimmers are popular due to their simplicity. They (until recently) were also one of the most popular DIY skimmers.

Wh said "we" were looking for a next skimmer. It would appear that you are insistent that the current breed of skimmers is incapable of doing what they should do. I do not see any proof that supports that premise, nor do I see any technology that would provide what you are proposing. You have outlined a wish list based on testing that does not exist and the premise that skimmers are not doing what they should.

As I read and reread this thread I am left baffled. It would appear that you are asking something to the effect:

"car companies sell quicker cares that only empty your wallets quicker and don't really get you from point A to point B faster or cheaper."

"we need a car that not only gets good mileage, but can in an ergonmic and comfortable way, reach speeds of mach 3, so as to provide less congestion on the congested urban roads during rush hour, and do so at an affordable price."

I already noted my feeling. The faster it fills the skimmer cup and the nastier the stuff is, the better it is working.

Even a cursory reading of the Escobal work indicates that contact time is the key to removing some proteins. Because all tanks are different, we don't know what the concentrations of proteins are and how long the respective types take to bond. So I do not see how your "simple tests" can be that simple.

I would also disagree with your contention that all we are doing is removing "surface proteins". It depends on the skimmer. It depends on the concentrations of each type of protein. It depends on many things.
 
Or... you could simply add ozone and carbon the remove any yellow in the water.

As for knowing what proteins our tanks make most of, concentrations, and what it takes to remove each of these... we most likely will never know. I figure the best we can do is cover all the bases... tall, lots of air, low turbulence, counter-current. And if my water is yellow... a little carbon should do it... if not... ozone.
 
Remora in Cesspool vrs. Bubble King in Waikiki Aquarium

Remora in Cesspool vrs. Bubble King in Waikiki Aquarium

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10665573#post10665573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I already noted my feeling. The faster it fills the skimmer cup and the nastier the stuff is, the better it is working.
A Remora in a cesspool will beat a Bubble King in the Waikiki Aquarium. It will fill its collection cup more quickly with nastier stuff. By testing the water columns with the cheap Salifert Organics kit, we can see that the Bubble King is doing a better job of maintaining water purity than the Remora.

This concept is not hard to understand. The key is to keep skimming after the easy-to-reach proteins are gone. If my 3-sentence explanation above is too much for you, here is an article comparing a downdraft skimmer to a counter-current skimmer by Richard Harker: http://www.tsunamiaquatic.com/page/page/1790661.htm.
 
Last edited:
Wow...lots of thoughts presented here. Let me give mine...

I think we can all agree that it would be very nice if "we" the consumer were able to drive the market to a point where an independent organization is established to develop a standardized test methods and subject the various products to those standardized tests so that "we" the consumer would be able to make more informed decisions. Maybe it would be called NIST (National Institute for Skimmer Testing)...oh wait, that name is already taken! haha

There are really only 1 real case (that I can think of) where this would occur. When consumer safety is in question, but when was the last time someone was seriously injured or killed in a skimmer related accident? Maybe our skimmer should have safety labels that say "Warning: Skimmate is NOT for Consumption"!

All of this does not mean that "we" should give up on asking for equipment that performs better than it does today, and cost less too. Maybe your just a bit ahead of the times...perhaps in 50 years our children's children will be running NIST!
 
Home Organics Kits

Home Organics Kits

The skimmer market can be easily driven by the development of a cheap reliable test kit. The Salifert Organics kit is a start.

Other inexpensive alternatives include standard organic dyes that are moderately skimmable. You pour it into a tank, skim it, and measure the remaining concentration with a color card. Better yet will be an organic compound that is not consumed by bacteria (remember Olestra?) but fluoresces under a UV fluorometer or absorbs infrared under a colorimeter.

There is no need for a government bureaucracy. A home organics kit that can be as simple to use as our current test kits will do more to drive the market.
 
lol Wow what a thread... There is no reason to even talk about CC skimmers if you only have a stand height of what 25" if I remember right.. So that isnt' going to fly.. IMO no skimmer will give you crystal clear water, Atleast not as clear as a skimmer and carbon. Or even better skimmer, carbon and ozone.. They just won't.. I've got a H&S A200.. great skimmer keeps my water Very clean and keeps all my levels at zero.. But once a month or every other month I still run a little carbon.. I dont use a test kit.. I just drain 2 gallons of water into a 2 gallon White bucket.. If the water has Any yellow look to it I add carbon to the tank.. NO big deal IMO. Skimmers are designed to remove organics. Some do it better then others, I don't think you will ever see a skimmer that removes 100% of all organics...

As far as testing. I don't see anyway to have a standard test.. Yes you could use a large amount of water and test every skimmer on the market. 1 that would take a huge amount of $$ just to get all those skimmers.. 2 They would all need to be brand new. Wouldn't be fair to use Joe's 2 year old skimmer up against marks 2 month old skimmer.. You know how much $$ it would cost to buy every model of every skimmer on the market lmao.. Then you have the problem of 6 months from now when a new model comes out.. You wont have the same test water. There is no practical way to make sure the new test water is EXACTY the same as the water used 6 months earlier.. Think about it this is really out there.. Best we have is water flow and amount of air a skimmer takes in.. If you figure skimmer size and the amount of water and air you can get a decent idea of how well the skimmer "should" work. Thats good enough for me.
 
BTW a Tunze skimmer is very small. So your current setup is already pretty compact IMO.. The better skimmers are massive. So even if you did find one to do even close to what you want. It will be no smaller then your solution that you have now that you Know works for you...
 
Back
Top