New System: Substrate vs Bare Bottom

[riemannp]

I am upgrading to new 240gal reef, and considering live rock w/ bare bottom, as opposed to a DSB which I was envisioning. I still have option of a refugium in my sump including a DSB or Miracle Mud. I would appreciate a reference to other threads on subject as I consider the argument-for vs argument-against. I realize some are adament for or against ... just looking for information to support an informed decision. Thanks in advance,

 

[geaux xman]

what are the dimensions of the tank?

once i receive my 180g, i'm setting it up barebottom FOWLR. I'll be able to crank up my powerheads at full blast and not worry about a sandstorm.

between the DSB and the waterline(combine 7-8"), that just takes away a lot of water volume.

 

[airbats801]

You also need to consider the fish you are keeping. Quite a few wrasses need sand beds.

 

[syrinx]

If it is sps and you need a hurricane of flow- BB is a option. For normal tanks I like a 1 inch sand or larger substrate. And I will state this also- many fish will wash out if not kept on a light colored bottom- so if you go BB you are well served to get starboard or other white bottom. The colors of the fish and some corals in my last BB tank I switched to sand changed considerably and instantly.

 

[R33f3r]

If you go BB, the bottom (glass or starboard) will be covered in coralline in no time! I still prefer bb to sand.

 

[Agu]

Personal opinion is that bare bottom/starboard tanks are ugly and look like science class experiments in junior high. If I'm replicating a natural habitat sand is mandatory.

jmo,

 

[barjam]

Personal opinion is that bare bottom/starboard tanks are ugly and look like science class experiments in junior high. If I'm replicating a natural habitat sand is mandatory.

jmo,

Depends in what type of habitat you are replicating. When diving I see no corals that live in the sand, they all live in the rocks. My tank is trying to replicate where the coral live (sps in my case). On top of that my tank is an in wall at eye level. Even if there were sand you wouldn't really notice it.

 

[REEForBANG]

I have a bb tank mixed reef and it's doing great don't need to worrie about the sand kicking up

 

[riemannp]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have done a lot of research in last few week, including reading Ron Shimek and J. Sprung texts I have. My conclusion is DSB provides the greater biodiversity and ecosystem I'm looking for, in don't think I'll be able to decline these benefits. I also have come to believe the nitrification capacity of the DSB will double the capacity of LR in system.

But going DSB requires maintenance due to 1) some same replentishmetn due to gradual arragonite sand dissolving; and 2) detrivore/infauna replacement here and there (kits form InlandAquatics.com for example).

Further, as I build my LR aquascape, I'll make sure the LR bears on base rock or PVC or fiberglass rod foundation, so as to avoid gradual dissolve of aquascape bearing on dissolving sand. Anyway, this is what I've learned. Always intersted in folks experience on this major decision in my build.

 

[frankpayne32]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have done a lot of research in last few week, including reading Ron Shimek and J. Sprung texts I have. My conclusion is DSB provides the greater biodiversity and ecosystem I'm looking for, in don't think I'll be able to decline these benefits. I also have come to believe the nitrification capacity of the DSB will double the capacity of LR in system.

But going DSB requires maintenance due to 1) some same replentishmetn due to gradual arragonite sand dissolving; and 2) detrivore/infauna replacement here and there (kits form InlandAquatics.com for example).

Further, as I build my LR aquascape, I'll make sure the LR bears on base rock or PVC or fiberglass rod foundation, so as to avoid gradual dissolve of aquascape bearing on dissolving sand. Anyway, this is what I've learned. Always intersted in folks experience on this major decision in my build.

Those texts you are reading are rather outdated in terms of current methodologies. DSB's are almost impossible to maintain long term. There are many other and safer ways to reduce nitrate levels and increase biodiversity. Personaly, I prefer the look of sandbeds (opinion), but they do require more maintenace (fact).

 

[riemannp]

Yes, I am well aware of the strong arguments for and strong arguments against. Two links below summarize the approach. I believe the DSB failure stories are result of failing to care for them, long term to provide long term success. By this I mean sand and infauna must be occassionally added to overcome arragonite dissolving and loss of infauna/fauna diversity / populations. Also many disturb/siphon DSB's, which should not be done. One big issue to DSBs is, in my opinion, is the inability to move them if necessary in teh future. For example, if the future requires me to relocate/move my reef, I will disband the DSB as opposed to attempting to translocate it, which is impossible to do wtih success on a fully mature DSB which requires say a year to reach maturity.

http://www.inlandaquatics.com/info/faq_lsand.html

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic66381-11-1.aspx

 

[Angel*Fish]

Yes, I am well aware of the strong arguments for and strong arguments against. Two links below summarize the approach. I believe the DSB failure stories are result of failing to care for them, long term to provide long term success. By this I mean sand and infauna must be occassionally added to overcome arragonite dissolving and loss of infauna/fauna diversity / populations. Also many disturb/siphon DSB's, which should not be done. One big issue to DSBs is, in my opinion, is the inability to move them if necessary in teh future. For example, if the future requires me to relocate/move my reef, I will disband the DSB as opposed to attempting to translocate it, which is impossible to do wtih success on a fully mature DSB which requires say a year to reach maturity.

http://www.inlandaquatics.com/info/faq_lsand.html

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic66381-11-1.aspx

I agree - even a basic understanding about your dsb goes a long way. I see post after post of people with dsb's doing things as blatantly wrong as adding sand sifting stars and ss gobies.

The life in a dsb is breathtaking in my opinion and the level of maintenance is relatively minimal (meaning occasional additions of infauna and microfauna). It may not be long before you need a nice microscope to observe what all is in there.

The stability really impressed me - I hate to use the cliche term, but it's like your tank is bullet proof.

After having had a rich, living successful sand bed, I don't think I could ever go back to one inch of sand. And BB doesn't appeal to me.

I like this article by A Calfo where he gives some opinions of why people fail with them http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic59558-13-1.aspx

 

[jmchzn123]

My DSB is 10 yrs old this yr I'm still waiting for the big failure. The old tank syndrome or the toxic crash that will kill everything. Oh and my sand is clean like the day I put it in the tank. I never vacuum it but I have added a lb or 2 over the years. I have seeded it 3-4 times but mainly because I listened to popular lore on clean up crews etc. Too many crabs and sand stars. I have 2 gobies living with 3 shrimp on opposite side of the tank that I wouldn't trade for anything. I have a Tunze wave box for plenty of flow so no sand kicks up but I'm not into the SPS yet. Softies and LPS right now. AI Sol Blues on the way so I may try a few SPS we'll see. I'm shooting for natural looking ecosystem. Strictly preference. I'm in awe of some of the SPS tanks I see. Like every reef keeper issues pop up but not because of DSB...and if I was going SPS I would probably still have a few inches of sand. Probably very fine grain..... I'm just saying

 

[Thepopo]

+1 for BB. I would add sand but not until the system has established itself. I hate searching for critters that I don't want in the tank.

 

[lolgranny]

I had the same debate 8months ago when I was setting up my tanks... went with bb and couldn't be happier. I've had 2 dsb's and id have to say bb is wayyyyyyyyyy easier. Less nitrates and phos. I do have a huge with a dsb. Sp's are happy as ever and things are flourishing. Have yet to have one algae issue

 

[TheCoralFarmer]

I never had success with DSB, BB all the way. Easier to see the dirt for removal. I feel a sand bed just becomes a dirt trap

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

IMO leave the display BB or SSB

IMO leave the display BB or SSB

if you want a DSB I suggest doing a remote deep sandbed (RDSB).

DSB is fine for certain reef animals such as softies and LPS.
The DSB "failure stories" aren't mythical. Critter poop is PO4, PO4 inhibits calcification in stony corals and a DSB can become an underwater litterbox over time.

keys to BB: strong water mtion and a good skimmer. Remove organics before they have a chance to break down in the display.

I strongly suggest doing more research.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I have to admit you rarely see a dsb tank packed with sps, whatever the reason. And I was indeed running a huge skimmer.

Since becoming active on RC again and reading so many posts giving completely wrong info on dsbs, I've about come to the conclusion they should be considered only for advanced hobbyists. When I say so many posts, what I mean is practically all posts.

The dsb sticky thread in the New to Hobby forum starts out well with the initial post, but in the first 4 pages alone it's obvious that the people giving input are uninformed about them. I wish they had kept that thread closed and added posts only as they found people to write more articles about them. How anyone can read through that and come out being anything other than confused, I don't know. And rare is the person who is going to read through 24 pages. I haven't read the whole thread, I found myself getting frustrated reading debate over info that's wrong to begin with without anyone coming back correct it.

As far as I can tell we no longer have anyone here anymore to offer expert dsb guidance and judging from the huge number of posts all over the board the quality of info seems to be getting worse. I gave consideration to posting a thread the other day titled, "Post what you know about dsb's and I bet it's completely wrong".

They may not work for every person's needs, but I think a lot of people would really like them are missing out because of really bad info. The subject of dsb's probably needed it's own forum, because in a way it's like seahorses or cephalopods in that it has it's own set of issues and really may not be a good idea for a newbie.

And I really, really hope that this informational mess of the dsb on RC in nonpolitical. If there were any issues initially, I hope that is behind us now.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I steer clear of any politics(?) involved in substrate vs. BB discussions.
The whole mentality of BB vs. DSB is wrong IMO/IME.

I've run aquariums with BB's, SSB's and DSB's (each for many years) and that's what I base my recommendations on.

Video of my ugly science experiment. No fancy production- shot with an inexpensive point and shoot camera. Keep sound off!

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[Gary Majchrzak]

another crazy experiment

another crazy experiment

Figured it might be time for an update.