New tank can't keep SPS alive.

[michika]

I moved tanks in November and experienced a tank wide die-off of all my SPS and most of my clam collection. After waiting out the aftermath, what I assume was a mini cycle, I began to try and add SPS again to my system and its just not working out.

Parameters in the new tank;
SG 1.025
Temp 77-82
Ca 420-440
Mg 1300
dKH Cusp between 7 & 8
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Phosphates 0.01

What happens when I add SPS is that they seem to have great polyp extension for the first couple of weeks, sometimes I start to see the beginnings of color changes. Then the polyp extension will gradually become less and less, at this point RTN or STN occurs.

This is my new tank; http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250399

My previous tank journal is not hosted on RC unfortunately and I am unsure if I can link it.

The new tank was built with appropriate silicone, I don't use cleaning products around it. I have pretty much the same cleaning schedule, 5g water change once a week, feed once a day, etc. I've spent days watching my tan, before and after lights on to confirm it is not any of my livestock. I am so confused.

The differences that I can account for between this tank and my previous cube;
- no sand
- more flow
- no GHA
- Different source water, but its all run through RO/DI (different cities)
- More rock (added after the initial SPS & clam die off
- Using Ocean Pure Pro rather then Red Sea Coral Pro salt

Help? I'm willing to entertain most any possibility.

 

[psteeleb]

it sounds like a foreign chemical, or a heavy metal like copper. I'm not sure how much the test kits are but I'd probably start by checking for copper. Also run fresh carbon 24/7, it picks up most chemicals

is the tank new or used? if used do you know the history

you also mention some added live rock, if this came from a copper treated tank you could be leaching some into your system from the rock.

 

[michika]

I made the tank, no copper in its history. I had it tested for copper (brought it to a trusted store) and was told there was no copper per the test. i do run carbon right now, same way you've suggested.

I added the rock after the initial SPS die off, which I don't know what triggered it. The rock was all from my previous tanks, none have ever been treated with copper. It was also dried at the time I added it. It had been dry for about 8 months and stored in sealed buckets. I of course rinsed it for about a week prior to adding it to the system.

So lets assume for a second that heavy metals could be doing it. Would this not also be bothering my remaining clams? I had two clams survive the initial tank wipe out, and I have since added a third. All seem fine, acting normally etc.

Do you know of anything that would kill SPS, but not bother zoas, clams or any livestock?

 

[psteeleb]

sounds good - just to eliminate the silicone was it aquarium safe? there are some on the market that have algea and bacteria inhibitors in them

and yes, there are a lot of things that can stress/kill sps and be little to no effect on other things

lets look at your chemistry a bit closer

what are your daily ph swings? you want to target 0.2 in a 24 hr period

if your temp is swinging 5 deg in a 24 hr period that could be a problem. it amy not be an imediate issue but over time will stress many sps - target 2 deg in a 24 hr period

could also be low lighting or low flow. Most sps pests leave some marks or can be seen, but may require a close up look maybe even through a camera lense

 

[michika]

Silicone was aquarium safe!

pH is always 8.0. It never moves as long as I keep my refugium on a referse photo period. Should I change the refugium schedule, then I see 7.9 after lights off and 8.1 throughout the day.

My temp doesn't swing over a day, the temps I provide are the seasonal variations. Right now it sits around 80.1- 80.3 now that it is warming up a bit outside. I should correct that, sorry, my bad.

No pests that I am aware of. All SPS going into my tank get a dip with TMPCC and an interceptor bath. I do check them, however its always possible that something got missed at some point.

Lighting is 1x175w MH, supplimented with PCs for color. I tried 250w, but causes too much temperature problems. The MH is in a luminarc reflector situated in the center of the tak.

Flow is provided by a Reeflo Dart (3600gph) pump on a manifold. There is also a hydor koralia 1 in the tank. Its there in case of power problems to provide flow. The powerhead is wired directly into battery backup.

 

[psteeleb]

that all sounds good

nothing so far is standing out,

are you getting random flow paterns?

what are you using to check the salinity? and how can you be sure it's accurate. We have encountered several refractometers to be off quite a bit at our local club. We have a guy that calibrates them at our monthly meetings. Even if calibrated to 0.0 with RO/DI they could be off at the 1.025 range. See if you can get a backup check done by someone

you may want to try sending a water sample to AWT for some of the chemicals they test. I don't like their Ca and Mg test results but the others should be okay.

I have to assume the plumbing was good (chemically clean enough that is). I would guess it's a cycle thing but you're are testing good there, just another reason to maybe have the water tested with another source.

If these come back negative, not knowing what sps you were trying, I'd try another "easy to keep" sps; like a policipora or green slimer.

 

[michika]

Yup the flow is pretty random, I also change the nozzles around every few months when I clean them.

I use a couple of refractometers. I'm really good at winning them in raffles for somer eason.

AWT isn't available in Canada unfortunately. I've already contacted them a few times to see if there is a similar service available up here. Right now I've just been relying on testing my own water, and having friends test it as well, as a sort of a back up.

The SPS I tried after the big die off were birdsnest, digitata, cap coral, and blue coral (which I am aware is not SPS). I tried all the basics again. I also had a few acro sp. frags. I even tried two colonies, which I never got around to IDing before they died.

The more suggestions the better. Everything helps in trying to figure out why I can't keep SPS anymore. I really appreciate it!

 

[vegaskid11]

In my short experience with sps I have noticed that sps are finicky and they dont like newly set-up tanks. I have moved several tanks that have experienced this die off with sps early on. Moving sps into a new tank (especially a larger tank) is not easy on them. I will typically try and save as much water from the oldtank as possible. Every last drop of existing water that you can save should go into the new display.

Most tanks are not truly cycled for maybe up to one year or more. A new tank has so much particle activity going on that the tank parameters are never generally stable. The nitrogen cycle that most refer to is just that a nitrogen cycle. What I am reffering to is the equilibrium of the water column. The ions that bounce around constantly binding and breaking down and binding again have an effect on the overall generally tested water parameters. Being a new tank, you are likely to see less stable conditions.

This may be causing your sps to die off while the other stuff does ok.

 

[michika]

Well I don't know. Everything in the tank is 4+ years old, and the new system is only about 4g larger then the previous system. I've moved tanks before without issues, and this is the first time I've ever had problems keeping SPS. I've had SPS and clams constantly since I started, and I am just so baffled that I can't seem to keep them now.

Nothing within the tank is "new" the rock is old, the livestock is old, everything is old. This tank was not "re-cycled" once moved everything. There was symptoms of a mini-cycle when everything died in November, however it was a true cycle that you would see if you set up a brand new system. I think of the system more as an older system, with a new set up.

Are you saying my tank is new like a newly set up system? I just need some clarification please. So are you saying that I need to wait on my tank for another year? I'm confused as to what you are suggesting.

 

[Joshua76]

I noticed a uv sterilizer, do you run it nonstop? And if so could this possibly be killing off beneficial bacteria to a detrimental level? If we all put in suggestions, I'm sure we can pinpoint the issue.




Joshua

 

[michika]

Sorry, I don't have a UV sterilizer. I'm not sure where you've read that. Please though, do keep the suggestions coming.

 

[vegaskid11]

Well. Keeping sps is not a mystery. We know what they need to surivive. If you have checked all of your major water params and everything checks out then I would have to look for pests or maybe your params are not staying stable. Maybe try and check at different times of the day and see if you get the same results.

 

[michika]

I do test pretty frequently, every other day, would you recommend more frequently?

I mentioned my QT process already. Aside from AEFW, redbugs, and crabs, what else do you think I should be looking for? None of the SPS frags ever ever exhibited anything that would indicate anything like the above. What would you be looking for?

 

[michika]

So what is the general consensus here on what I should be doing?

- letting the tank "mature more"?
- test more frequently?
- check for pests? SPS pests I am assuming.

 

[vegaskid11]

I mean by testing at different times of the day. Try a test in the morning and note the params then try it in the afternoon and then again in the evening. Note the changes and compare them to normal fluctuations.

 

[michika]

I test at pretty random times, and I do make note if they were done in the AM or PM, but that is about as specific as I get. I'll try randomizing it further, and be more specific in when I'm testing, noting times from now on. What trends you would just I watch for? My guess would be pH, dKH, and Ca swings related to time of day.

 

[Oldude]

Sounds like I need to come over and have a look Catherine.
I'll wait for your invitation.

 

[deklin]

Those sound like the symptoms of SPS starving to death. I only took a glance, but it looked like you are running filter socks and an octopus skimmer on a 28 gallon. Add in the change to BB and high flow and there may be nothing left in the water column.

If this sounds accurate, try feeding your corals more. Use coral frenzy, oyster eggs, cyclopeze, etc. Amino acids help too, feed after your lights go out and make sure to remove filter socks and turn skimmer off (or just remove cup) until morning. Try this a couple times a week.

I encountered a similar problem with an oversized skimmer and a BB setup. I eventually ended up adding a SSB in part to help with this problem.

 

[michika]

Anytime! Although after tomorrow you will have bring smelling salts, I'm making up that massive batch of food.

 

[michika]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12085654#post12085654 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by deklin
Those sound like the symptoms of SPS starving to death. I only took a glance, but it looked like you are running filter socks and an octopus skimmer on a 28 gallon. Add in the change to BB and high flow and there may be nothing left in the water column.

If this sounds accurate, try feeding your corals more. Use coral frenzy, oyster eggs, cyclopeze, etc. Amino acids help too, feed after your lights go out and make sure to remove filter socks and turn skimmer off (or just remove cup) until morning. Try this a couple times a week.

I encountered a similar problem with an oversized skimmer and a BB setup. I eventually ended up adding a SSB in part to help with this problem.

I do feed cyclop-eeze with my daily food, my chromis love it. I also dose Zeovit's Sponge Power, and Amino acids. Although since all my SPS have died I cut back the dosing to 1/4 of the recommended use.

I've been tossing around the idea of putting sand back in the system, maybe this is a hint. Is your sand bad in your display or did you add on a remote sand bed?