New to hobby. Need advice.

[teamreefers]

First we would like to introduce ourselves and then ask for advice on what we may be doing wrong or what is causing our fish to die.

My wife and I are new to the hobby. We tried a small fish only tank several years ago. We were the typical newbies, naive on what it takes to maintain an aquarium and not equipped to do it properly. We quickly realized we didn’t have what it takes and sold our equipment.

My wife decided she wanted to try again so we began reading all we could. Being on a tight budget, we started with a used 55G FW system and upgraded as our budget allowed. We are both quickly becoming addicted to the hobby and need all the advice we can get. We are still new, so please be gentle with your criticisms.

We are having trouble with green algae and loosing fish. Here is a detailed diary of what we have done.


Week one

Started with the following used equipment
55G tank and stand
Underwater filter using two small power heads
HOB filter
36 watts of T3 (I think) lighting
Heater

Filled tank with tap water, water treatment to remove chloramines, and Instant Ocean to 1.023 SG.
Added Seachem buffer to raise pH.
Let tank stabilize for two days.
Added 20lbs live sand, 20lbs, crushed coral, and 10lbs aquarium sand (not live).
Let tank stabilize about three days.


Week two

Added 1 yellow damsel, 1 four-stripe damsel, 1 yellow tail damsel, and 2 blue damsels.
Feed once daily with flake food
Added Seachem stabilizer every day to speed cycling
Bought test kits and begin testing daily



Week 3

Added protein skimmer, two more powerful power heads, and 260watts of PC lighting (2 x 65W 7500K and 2 x 65W actinic)
Received 30lbs live rock. Cured rock for three days in garbage can with complete water changes twice daily. Ammonia was still present but low.
Added live rock to tank. Performed 20% water change using tap water.



Week 4

Ammonia and nitrites going up indicating a cycle start
Added 10lbs live rock form LFS.


Week 5

Look like cycle has completed by the end of week five

NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 10
SG = 1.024
pH = 8.3
Temp = 76-78F

Added 45lbs more live rock after a mini cure of one day. This was really good rock with little die off.

Added black brittle star and assortment of snails.
Ammonia went back up slightly indicating a mini cycle
20% water change using tap water again.



Week 6

Ammonia and nitrites back to 0. Nitrate varies between 5 and 20.
Yellow Damsel died. Other damsels harassed it to death I think.

Had diatom bloom.
Removed HOB filter since heard it is a nitrate factory
Bought RO/DI filter and performed 20% water change.
Returned two blue damsels to LFS since they were getting too aggressive

NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 20
SG = 1.024
pH = 8.3
Temp = 76-78F


Week 7

Saw 4" bristle worm in tank
Bought 5 green chromis, percula clown, yellow watchman golby, 3 emerald crabs, and more snails. Realize this was a mistake since the sudden extra bio load caused another mini cycle. Ammonia went up to barely detectable levels then back to zero. Nitrite still 0 and nitrate 20.

After a day the two chromis started developing vertical white lines across their sides. After another day these white lines appeared reddish, possibly blood just underneath the surface. They started dying 1 by one. After about a 10 days all 5 chromis had developed these symptoms and died. I attached a picture.

Started feeding combination of flake, pellet, and frozen brine shrimp alternating each one every day.
Started adding Purple-Up three times weekly to raise calcium.
20% water change



Week 8

Green algae bloom.
NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 10
SG = 1.024
Ph = 8.3
Temp = 76-78F


Bought a refractometer and realized our old tester gave use low readings. Our SG had been around 1.020 instead of 1.024. Raised SG to 1.024 by changing 5% water with 1.030 daily for three days.

Bought calcium test. Ca = 400
Started adding iodine and strontium twice weekly


Week 9

Yellow golby died.
Heater went out. Temperate is now fluctuating from about 72F at night to about 78F during the day due the lights.
Added Copper banded Butterfly fish and peppermint shrimp to control aiptasia which started growing.

NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 5
SG = 1.025
Temp = 72-78F
pH = 8.3
Ca = 400
20% water change


Week 10

Added pulsing Xenia
Green algae bloom
Aiptasia gone.

NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 10
SG = 1.025
Temp = 72-78F
pH = 8.3
Ca = 400
20% water change


Week 11

Stopped feeding flake food since LFS said it may be adding phosphates.
Green algae still blooming.
Looking at setting up a refugium.

NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 10
SG = 1.025
Temp = 72-78F
Ph = 8.3
Ca = 380 (added more purple up)
20% water change


Week 12

Added yellow tang to control hair algae which has started.
Added frogspawn
Copper banded butterfly died.
Green algae still blooming.
Bought new heater


NH3 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 10
SG = 1.024
Temp = 76-78F
Ph = 8.3
Ca = 400
20% water change


Now for the question.

What is causing our fish to die? Is it possible for a bristle worm to attack our fish? What about the brittle star? He is about 8 inches diameter now. I have read the green ones will attach small fish but not the black ones. Did we get a serial killer or is it something else killing them?



What is causing our algae? Is this normal or do we have some phosphates from our original tap water? Does the small amount of nitrate cause this?

Will a refugium help?



Thanks and sorry for the long post.

 

[JimW]

teamreefers,

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

Great to have new members to the forum!

Seems like you may be moving a little fast with all the additions in such a new system. I would suspect that you are continuing to experience ammonia spikes due to the rapid additions of bio-load on the system. Everything bad in this hobby happens quickly, and everything good happens slowly.

I would also be suspect of using tap water, as it could contain many undesirable pollutants. Would highly recommend investing in an RO system to insure you source water is free from possible contaminants.

With time, patience and a lot of research, you and your wife will see the rewards of your efforts in a successful reef tank!

Best wishes,

Jim

 

[Mariner]

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>
Wow, that's some experience!
Reading your post, I can't help but feel that you are getting some bad advice (I'm guessing from an LFS?). It just seems that your entire approach has been sort backwards. Here's what I mean:
* An underwater (undergravel?) filter is rarely used in a reef tank anymore, and is almost a surefire way of guaranteeing a build up of waste and noxious chemicals.
* Tapwater, even if treated for chloramines can still contain loads of dissolved solids harmful in a marine aquarium.
* Adding live stock (5 fish) before the tank has cycled, before adding live rock and before adding a protein skimmer will kill the livestock every time. Adding the group of chromis all at once later was, as you've recognized, also a mistake.
*Adding large delicate fish like a copper-band and a yellow tang to a tank that's not 3 months old that has had lots of problems is...well...let's say very ill advised.
I could go on, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. You're approach to establishing this tank has not been sound, and your water quality has suffered. Your fish are not dying because of a bristle worm or a starfish, they're dying because of very poor water quality due mainly the mistakes that have been made in setting up this tank.

A proper procedure would be more like the following:
1) Put water in tank and run proper filters, heater and skimmer and lights.
2) Add all live rock and sand.
3) Wait at least 2 to 4 weeks until tank fully cycles and stabilizes.
4) Add cleaning crew (snails, crabs, etc.) and wait another couple of weeks.
5) Then, if all is well, add one or two small fish.
6) Only add a fish or two at a time, and wait at least two weeks between new additions.
7) Add one or two easy corals after 6 to 8 weeks from setting up the tank -- waiting 3 months would be better.

A tank set up this way will not be having cycles every other week resulting in dead fish.

As far as the situation you're in now, I'd advise the following:
1) Do not add anymore fish or corals for the time being.
2) Start using RO water to mix salt for water changes You can get it at Walmart at a Culligan dispenser, usually at the front of the store. Plan on doing weekly water changes of 20% or so for awhile. It'll make a big difference using GOOD water to do your changes with.
3) You may need to add a few more cleaners (turbo & cerith snails, small hermit crabs) to help control algae -- I'm not sure how many you have at this point
4) Stop adding ANY CHEMICALS to your tank that you do not test for -- a build up of iodine or strontium for instance can be deadly, and you have nothing in your tank now that needs extra of either.
5) Add a refugium if feasible. Stock it with a macro algae like chaeto.
6) I didn't see any mention of how often your changing filter media, but I'd change carbon once a week -- make sure you rinse the new carbon first.

I can't think of anything else for now. Hopefully others will chime in. Hope I haven't been too harsh!
Good luck!
Mariner

 

[Nitroq2]

Agree with Mariner here.

 

[teamreefers]

Thnaks for the quick replies. We have been lurking here for a couple of weeks and you guys are a hoot.

I thought we maybe going too fast and thought my post may have been a little long.

Seems a couple of points were missed.

Our water quality seems to be good. I check ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and Ph at least 3 times a week. After week two, ammonia and nitrites have always been zero except after we added the 5 chromis then it went to 0.25 for a couple of days. The nitrates have always been between 5 and 20.

We used tap water for the initial fill and water changes for the first 5 weeks. We realized this was a mistake and bought a RO/DI system. We have been doing 20% water changes every week since.

How should we go about removing the underwater filter? Should we just cap off the uplift tubes?


Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Mariner]

Getting the RO/DI was a great move. :thumbsup: Sorry I missed that in the initial post.
Concerning the water quality...ummmm...nitrates of 5 to 20 with the water changes that you're doing indicate that there's still a lot of processing of nitrogen going on in the tank. That's NOT good water quality. Should be 5 to undetectable.

I'm not sure what the best way to remove/discontinue the UG filter is. If it were mine, I'd be very tempted to remove everything from the tank, take out the UG and start all over, especially since the tank hasn't gotten off to a solid start otherwise.... but that's just me. Capping it could work...don't know.

Also, an HOB powerfilter is not bad, as long as you don't use the biowheels and keep the filter media changed. It's one way of adding circulation/filtration capabilities.
HTH,
Mariner

 

[NicoleC]

I totally agree with everything Mariner has said, and I second the suggestion to remove the undergravel filter. The way I would do this, is take the corals and fish back to the store and keep the live rock in Rubbermaid tub(s) with the heater and good circulation.

Then remove the UGF (leave the sand in the tank), do a 100% water change with RO water and let the tank sit for at least a week with lights and everything running. Once you are sure there is no cycle caused by buildup under the UGF, add the live rock, then continue with the plan laid out by Mariner.

If you choose not to remove the UGF and turn it off, detritus will build up under it and be a constant source of algae food. Later you will want to remove it, but it will be much harder then,

That said, those of us who have been in the hobby for a while remember when UGF's where the latest technology and have used them successfully in the past. (Paul, here on RC, STILL has his tank going with a UGF!, something like 20 years now.) So it's not totally mandatory your remove it... but I would highly recommend it.

A few notes on fish choices. Tangs are ill advised for smaller tanks like yours. Many people do keep yellow tangs (who are less active than other tangs) in 55's, but that is really the bottom limit. IME, pushing the bottom limit is never wise. Having a buffer zone can be a lifesaver for the fish and corals when bad things happen.

The copperband butterfly is fairly difficult to keep even for experienced aquariasts. I would avoid it. Aiptasia can be fought with kalk paste, Joe's Juice, lemon juice and other options. Peppermint shrimp are hit or miss on aiptasia (and often a different shrimp altogether is sold as a peppermint), but are charming harmless shrimp and are worth a try. A few rogues develop a taste for polyps like zoanthids, so if they are in your near future, you may wish to skip the peppermint shrimp.

Damsels get large and very aggressive. You will regret having one in your tank very soon. They certainly don't mix with shy, gentle fish like yellow watchman gobies.

Good choices for fish would be some of the following, maybe 4-5 fish total:
a juvenile clown pair (I'd skip maroons)
one sand sifting goby like the yellow watchman
assessors
basslets (don't mix with assessors)
firefish
small blennies like the bicolor (NOT a scooter or lawnmower in this size tank)
small gobies like neons, clown gobies and red head gobies
cardinals
6 line wrasse, once the live rock is well established

If you want to go with a more aggressive tank, the clowns would still work but none of the others above, and you could also consider a hawkfish or a wrasse (but not both).

There are many possible combinations of fish -- I would plan ahead and research all your possible choices. Don't buy on impulse, but leave the fish at the store so you can go research them first. And add one or maybe two at a time.

Furthermore, I would save yourself some potential future headache dealing with illness and mysterious deaths, and use good quarantine procedures now. This is a good thread to read about it:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=684888

 

[Nitroq2]

(Note the following was typed back before nicholes response so sorry if things were repeated busy day at work)
I don't think I would try to cap it off, I have actually left the piping for a magnum 350 in mine for draining the tank for water changes and let my wife be the first to tell you tank water that doesn't circulate is awful, so having a place like that in the tank may breed some nasty stuff for the tank. Removing it like Mariner said might be a good idea. As for you water quality did you say what the phosphates were in the tank? The stuff that was talked about were not nitrates, ammonia, or nitrite. The stuff that was talked about could be high traces of Copper, Lead, Iron, Magnesium, the list could go on for days. When you use tap water that is treated but not filtered then you still lead all these and more in the tank. Now once in the tank if those were in the water they can leach into liverock and other things. Not saying that's what happened to you fish just stating that when they talked about water quality that is what they were mostly referring to. Looking at the fish I would highly suspect Ammonia in the tank was the cause for these to die. On a 55 Gallon tank when you add just two fish within a day your bioload will climb, if you are able to detect ammonia you are causing damage to the fish. The best thing for you to do right now is let the tank sit for at least 3 weeks. Don't add anything but food about once every 3 days, and do some aggressive water changes. If there is anything that dies during that time start the clock over. You have got stabilize this tank and adding anything to it will not allow it. I would recommend if your close enough the NARC meetings go to them those guys are great Mariner being one of them. Also ask one of them to bring you some sand from their tank to help seed yours. That is a suggestion, its probably not what you want to hear, but its a solid step in the right direction. From looking at your history I don't see where the tank has been able to make a full cycle without it getting broken and started again. You may also lose the fish that are left. If you do this then I would also suggest staying fishless(fallow) for 8 weeks and move the temp up to 82 degrees this would wipe out crypto (marine ich) if there was any sign of it in the tank. also has the tank every been treated with copper for ich? what chemicals have been added?
Allen

 

[Nitroq2]

After looking back that post was a mess sorry for the typos and mistakes. But I also had time to read Nichole's response and she is dead on with taking out the remaining livestock.(this would prevent further death of the animals and should have been my suggestion as well). And when that is done doing an 8 week fallow would be a good thing and would also allow for the tank to stablize. Also before putting the rock back in the tank go ahead and scrub it while in the old water and get all bad algae off of it, that may help that problem later. Again get to a meeting either with this club or the Middle Tn Reef Club http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=286
they seem to have some nice folk there as well. Meet some of the experienced reefers and learn from them, maybe get a mentor that will help you along. Keep us up to date on the progress and best of luck.

 

[NicoleC]

P.S. The fish images are consistent with both ammonia burns and bacterial infections.

If it is infection, it could be due to fighting (very likely with damsels), and under the highly stressful conditions of the tank, the fish were unable to fight off the infection.

And, pardon the caps, but:
YOU DO NOT NEED LIVE FISH TO CYCLE A TANK!

Because I betcha the fish store said so when they sold you all those damsels. The live rock will cycle the tank nicely by itself, and if for some reason it doesn't, a piece of dead shrimp or fish will. Buy a bag of shrimp, toss a piece in the tank and have the rest for dinner. Voila! Source of ammonia to start the cycle.

 

[ensignpc]

Because I betcha the fish store said so when they sold you all those damsels.

That's what happened to us three years ago before I discovered the Living Reef............ We went way too fast and learned the hard way.


This is a great post for newbies and hopefully others reading this will learn from this. When we started our tank three years ago reading this thread would have prevented us from making the same mistakes.........

What these folks are telling you is dead on..........

 

[ensignpc]

bump for a friend

 

[edwar050]

I have lost fish in the past before as well but never at so fast a pace. What about looking around and seeing if you can find a home for somebody who needs a copperband buttefly in a say 240 gallon tank. Mabye you could trade for corals. The skimmer would is probably a good upgrade though I would seriously consider not spending too much on the 55 because if you get really addicted to the hobby a 55 is okay but hard to drill "usually tempered" and is very hard to aquascape, and leaves little room for a sump below. As far as progression goes I have added about as many fish with same bio-load to my 120 in a years time and still lost a chromis and cleaner shrimp and occasionally fight diatoms and had an early hair algae outbreak. What type of filtration are you using now? You might want to consider a phosban reactor if you have room and something along the lines of seagel "carbon and phosban" like 1/2 of a month and the other 1/2 of the month phosban. This would also allow you to do water changes at those times.