I just watched a YouTube video of a trick to cleaning your sand sled wanted to see if anyone else does this or if there is any benefits they see to it. Essentially what the idea was is simply instead of siphoning your sandbed into a 5g bucket run the siphon into a filter sock in the sump for as long as you like and that way you can stir up the entire bed pulling more detritus into the sock without actually pulling any water out. Obviously removing water is necessary to replenish other nutrients but would this be helpful or not really? If this would work I could see myself doing this a few times a week. Thoughts?
Nitrate removal idea.
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Xxero
New member
I've watched the same video, and 'Yes' it does work. Works great!
But like bertoni said, if you go nuts with it then you will remove a lot of your small sand dwelling critters and denitrifying bacteria. If you are someone who tumbles your sand bed as you perform your water changes, then what you watched in the video makes this easier. You can spend as much time vacuuming your sand as you would like without having to worry about how much water you're removing. When you're finished cleaning the sand, then perform your water change.
I would only clean about 1/3 of your sand per water change though, so as not to disrupt the good stuff.
But also like bertoni said, a lot of people don't clean their sand beds at all. Just depends on your personal system. :bigeyes:
But like bertoni said, if you go nuts with it then you will remove a lot of your small sand dwelling critters and denitrifying bacteria. If you are someone who tumbles your sand bed as you perform your water changes, then what you watched in the video makes this easier. You can spend as much time vacuuming your sand as you would like without having to worry about how much water you're removing. When you're finished cleaning the sand, then perform your water change.
I would only clean about 1/3 of your sand per water change though, so as not to disrupt the good stuff.
But also like bertoni said, a lot of people don't clean their sand beds at all. Just depends on your personal system. :bigeyes:
CStrickland
New member
I vacuum my sand. I don't put the water back in the system because I think the water itself is really dirty too. This way is only removing the stuff that hasn't broken down to smaller that the filter sock holes yet. I've actually been meaning to let the vac water settle in a bucket and test it for phos and trates. Thanks for the reminder. I'll post my results.
Silly clownfish
New member
I switched froma crushed coral aggregate to special grade sand when I upgraded froma 30g to a 75g about a year and a half ago. Contrary to waht everyone here says, I found the CC much easier to keep clean - vaccuming with most water changes. The sand gets algae in it and clumps up like kitty litter, so it does not vacuum well.
That said, the technique you describe would work well. I have done something similar using an otherwise unused canister filter with a siphon on the intake and a coarse media in the canister - don't use a polishing filter for vacuuming, it will clog very quickly!
As others said - don't vacuum more than a portion of your tank floor at a time or you will wipe out your population of good things like pods. I have been culturing pods for my mandarin in 2 pretzel jars and harvesting from one jar into the tank after each water change.
That said, the technique you describe would work well. I have done something similar using an otherwise unused canister filter with a siphon on the intake and a coarse media in the canister - don't use a polishing filter for vacuuming, it will clog very quickly!
As others said - don't vacuum more than a portion of your tank floor at a time or you will wipe out your population of good things like pods. I have been culturing pods for my mandarin in 2 pretzel jars and harvesting from one jar into the tank after each water change.
I have very fine beach sand (silica sand) and do not disturb it. I have a fish only system.
When a sand bed is vigorously mixed, it is probably temporarily destroying a very complex ecosystem. Maybe this is a big "so what". No one seems to have systematically studied aquarium sand beds. Much is inferred from studies of marine sediments.
I have begun a study of my aquarium sand bed. The pore water contains elevated PO4, iron, sometimes NH3, never detected nitrates or amino acids. It takes many hours for pore water to equilibrate with the overlying water. Because there isn't much space between the sand grains there isn't much room for water or detritus.
So, I am not sure there is an urgent need to vacuum a sand bed, but I remain undecided about its importance. Maybe it is important for aragonite. Aragonite sand is chemically very different from silica sand. It is reactive, a very good adsorbant, can dissolve and clump. I would go so far to say that aragonite is probably a poor choice of substrate for an aquarium or at least a risky choice.
When a sand bed is vigorously mixed, it is probably temporarily destroying a very complex ecosystem. Maybe this is a big "so what". No one seems to have systematically studied aquarium sand beds. Much is inferred from studies of marine sediments.
I have begun a study of my aquarium sand bed. The pore water contains elevated PO4, iron, sometimes NH3, never detected nitrates or amino acids. It takes many hours for pore water to equilibrate with the overlying water. Because there isn't much space between the sand grains there isn't much room for water or detritus.
So, I am not sure there is an urgent need to vacuum a sand bed, but I remain undecided about its importance. Maybe it is important for aragonite. Aragonite sand is chemically very different from silica sand. It is reactive, a very good adsorbant, can dissolve and clump. I would go so far to say that aragonite is probably a poor choice of substrate for an aquarium or at least a risky choice.
Xxero
New member
And yet aragonite is THE highest recommended sand by experienced reefers, set-up stickies, and internet sites.
So which is correct?
CStrickland
New member
I don't think my sandbed loses any of the bacteria responsible for removing nitrates. I haven't had nitrate trouble outside of an acute issue immediately following tearing apart my entire aquascape. Prior to, and since recovering from, that incident my nitrates have been steady under ten and mostly under five. For about the first 8 months I didn't have a skimmer either. I got a great deal on one because I was able to be patient and save up for it without putting off having a tank. I don't find vacuuming to be much of a hassle and I prefer it to maintaining algae like chaeto or a scrubber, or having an extra reactor.
I would think that special grade aragonite contributes to nitrates somewhere in between a fine sand that doesn't allow any detritus accumulation, and a crushed coral that allows quite a bit. I wonder how much the composition of the grains contributes. I guess a tank running with dolomite gravel would be a good comparator to see whether it is the aragonite itself or just the grain size, but I think they are usually used with a UGF.
I would think that special grade aragonite contributes to nitrates somewhere in between a fine sand that doesn't allow any detritus accumulation, and a crushed coral that allows quite a bit. I wonder how much the composition of the grains contributes. I guess a tank running with dolomite gravel would be a good comparator to see whether it is the aragonite itself or just the grain size, but I think they are usually used with a UGF.
Xxero
New member
My Diamond Watchman Goby keeps my aragonite spotless all the way down to the bottom pane of glass. He literally moves one half of the tank to the other side and vice versa several times a day. I cannot see how it would be possible for any micro fauna to set-up and establish themselves in a constantly churned and gill filtered sandbed.
I do not see how it would be any different routinely vacuuming your sandbed.
Vacuuming the sand would be beneficial for excessive detritus removal, but I feel that it makes your sandbed ineffective for micro fauna populations. I believe that it turns your sand into aquarium décor rather than increased biological filtration.
I could be very wrong.
I do not see how it would be any different routinely vacuuming your sandbed.
Vacuuming the sand would be beneficial for excessive detritus removal, but I feel that it makes your sandbed ineffective for micro fauna populations. I believe that it turns your sand into aquarium décor rather than increased biological filtration.
I could be very wrong.
CStrickland
New member
I think of my sand as decoration and a wrasse-bed.
I don't think there's much benefit to extra micro fauna. Like, keeping excess detritus to encourage a population of detritivores for what? To eat the excess detritus? It seems inefficient to me. I think in my tank there's prolly less in the sand and more in the rock, but I have less rock than most too. I'm also not heavily stocked, I'm sure that helps but I feed a lot.
jason2459
Well-known member
I'm with bertoni above. I don't touch my sand bed at all. I have many different critters from very tiny like bacteria to sizable like a fighting conch that loves my sand bed. It's caribsea special grade.
I also picked up from Randy Holmes-Farley to not touch the detritus in my sump. It is filled with life.
Then on the Paul B side of things in my reverse undergravel filter that breeds pods like mad. I do blow the top of it and my rocks off with a diatom filter around once a year. Which is another thing I picked up from him as well. But I don't touch the sand bed or detritus in the bottom of the sump areas that doesn't have a UGF plate and dolomite on top.
Otherwise I keep my hands totally out of the tank. Except to hand feed my copperband butterfly.
I'm over stocked and over feed. Nutrient levels are always in check unless I do something stupid.
I also picked up from Randy Holmes-Farley to not touch the detritus in my sump. It is filled with life.
Then on the Paul B side of things in my reverse undergravel filter that breeds pods like mad. I do blow the top of it and my rocks off with a diatom filter around once a year. Which is another thing I picked up from him as well. But I don't touch the sand bed or detritus in the bottom of the sump areas that doesn't have a UGF plate and dolomite on top.
Otherwise I keep my hands totally out of the tank. Except to hand feed my copperband butterfly.
I'm over stocked and over feed. Nutrient levels are always in check unless I do something stupid.
Xxero
New member
I'm currently dealing with high nitrates. This has of course led me to research research research in regards to nitrate removal theories, etc. During this period, I realized that the sand in my DT is pointless in regards to adding anything to biological filtration. 40 pounds of sand in the DT, but it serves as nothing but aquarium décor (which I like, btw).
I guess my point is that if an individual has sand in their DT hoping to add to their overall biological filtration system (nitrate removal), then the sand should be disturbed as little as possible. And I would even take that as far as to say to keep Gobies out of your aquarium and do not vacuum/tumble.
But if you have sand in your aquarium for decorative reasons (or for fish sleeping bags :thumbsup
then I would suggest vacuuming portions of the bed during routine water changes just for settled detritus removal.
In regards to micro fauna, I recently installed a deep sand bed in the refugium portion of my sump. The life that lives in and on that sand has blown my mind! It reminds me of the aquatic equivalent of an ant farm, and the benefits of these little detritivores goes unsaid. If I were to start a new tank, I would definitely include a deep sand bed; I would have no Gobies; and I would never vacuum/tumble the sand. :bigeyes:
I guess my point is that if an individual has sand in their DT hoping to add to their overall biological filtration system (nitrate removal), then the sand should be disturbed as little as possible. And I would even take that as far as to say to keep Gobies out of your aquarium and do not vacuum/tumble.
But if you have sand in your aquarium for decorative reasons (or for fish sleeping bags :thumbsup
then I would suggest vacuuming portions of the bed during routine water changes just for settled detritus removal.In regards to micro fauna, I recently installed a deep sand bed in the refugium portion of my sump. The life that lives in and on that sand has blown my mind! It reminds me of the aquatic equivalent of an ant farm, and the benefits of these little detritivores goes unsaid. If I were to start a new tank, I would definitely include a deep sand bed; I would have no Gobies; and I would never vacuum/tumble the sand. :bigeyes:
Xxero
New member
+1 What he said. :lmao:
Aragonite is fine as a substrate, in my experience. It might be somewhat more prone to clumping, but it is less likely to scratch glass or acrylic. Some people prefer the looks of silica; some prefer aragonite. I prefer aragonite.
Having an animal turn over the sand will remove infauna (that's why they're turning over the bed) and I would think it'd render the sand fairly useless for denitrification, since denitrification tends to occur in anoxic zones. Whether you want infauna in your tank or not will influence whether you add an animal like a goby, but either way can work.
Having an animal turn over the sand will remove infauna (that's why they're turning over the bed) and I would think it'd render the sand fairly useless for denitrification, since denitrification tends to occur in anoxic zones. Whether you want infauna in your tank or not will influence whether you add an animal like a goby, but either way can work.
stephenhall1987
New member
This thread is starting to stray away from the original question... lol
My frag tank is bare bottom, and it collects detritus in the dead spots. I use this method of siphoning through a filter sock in the sump, but I find that some of it goes right through the sock and clouds the water...
In my display tank, I "gravel siphon" the sand with every water change. I have a very fine sand, and i find that when I skip siphoning the sand for a while, the next time I do siphon, it is full of junk. I don't clean it through a filter sock, I just drain it out and throw it away. (I have used a filter sock to siphon out asterina stars, but that's another topic).
I believe in removing as much detritus as possible to keep the water clean. I also siphon out my sump once in a while. If I wanted my sand to perform denitrification I would have made a deep sand bed. I keep the nitrates and phosphates under control with filter socks, skimming, Macro algae, and water changes.
My only concern with siphoning the sand and sump would be the removal of copepods etc. But my Mandarin, Diamond Goby, and Wrasses seem to be happy.
My frag tank is bare bottom, and it collects detritus in the dead spots. I use this method of siphoning through a filter sock in the sump, but I find that some of it goes right through the sock and clouds the water...
In my display tank, I "gravel siphon" the sand with every water change. I have a very fine sand, and i find that when I skip siphoning the sand for a while, the next time I do siphon, it is full of junk. I don't clean it through a filter sock, I just drain it out and throw it away. (I have used a filter sock to siphon out asterina stars, but that's another topic).
I believe in removing as much detritus as possible to keep the water clean. I also siphon out my sump once in a while. If I wanted my sand to perform denitrification I would have made a deep sand bed. I keep the nitrates and phosphates under control with filter socks, skimming, Macro algae, and water changes.
My only concern with siphoning the sand and sump would be the removal of copepods etc. But my Mandarin, Diamond Goby, and Wrasses seem to be happy.
A difficult question to answer because of the lack of science and almost total dependency on anecdotal data. This is not unlike the nutritional supplant market. A billion dollar industry based on bogus claims. I bring that up just to point out the possibilty that everyone can be wrong.
Since coral can grow well in the absence of aragonite sand, e.g., the so called bare bottom systems, we can at least agree that there isn't anything special about aragonite. Definitely pretty in an aquarium though.
I took an online class on deep sandbeds at one point. Everyone measure the parameters of their pore water and did some population counts on animals. There was only one person with silica sand, but his tank was fine. I think the choice between aragonite and silica comes down to esthetics and cost.
