craftedpacket
New member
As far as jump starting your bacteria goes...this stuff really works.
http://www.fritzpet.com/turbostartmain.html
http://www.fritzpet.com/turbostartmain.html
Nitrates are killing me!
- Thread starter onehundred20
- Start date
rleechb
New member
From what I understand, the ERs of old were very comparable to the ASMs, like you said, the only difference was material (and price, of course). However, ER improved their impellers/pumps since then, and dropped their prices, whereas ASM increased their prices, and did nothing to improve their skimmer design. The people who guided you towards the ASM probably weren't up to date on their skimmers, like Rich is.
You don't, however, have to go out and buy an octopus or ER. Just look up the mesh mod, modify your impeller, and you'll be skimming with much greater efficiency. It'll only cost you a couple bucks. If you decide at that point, that you're still not skimming enough, then yes, look at a large version of one of the aforementioned skimmers.
As far as T5 vs. MH, one isn't better than the other. MH was considered "better" than T5 initially because MH elitists/T5 skeptics didn't believe T5s had the ability to sustain light-hogging animals like clams/sps. Like all equipment, reefers finally tested T5 exclusively over tanks with these organisms, and well, the results speak for themselves. It's really a matter of personal preference, imo.
Rhodesholar
New member
Ok that explanation makes more sense. Mine is older. I got it for $239 including shipping compared to $350+ for the Euroreef of the same size at the time. I don't do anything without extensive research, (that is my day gig) and I know that "was" the story. ER was very concerned about ASM stealing thier market share. So it sounds like ER redesigned, and is once again superior. I haven't been in the market for a skimmer for well over year, so I guess I am out of the loop.
Thanks to both of you for the info. AGain I don't mean to hijack this gentlemans thread.
melev
Well-known member
What I could do is take some pictures of both of my skimmers so you could see that they are NOT the same quality whatsoever. And my ER 12-2 is an older version, one that was stored in an attic for years along with 5 others. A local guy was planning to open a store and it never really took off. He called me when he knew I was in the market for a new skimmer and told me to come over and pick the one I wanted. All six boxes were still sealed, and to be honest I didn't know what to get. I just trusted him and it was the best decision "we" ever made. hehe
The ASM G3 was a purchase on a lark. A guy on our club site put it up for sale at 2am at a rediculously low price. I told him "At that price, I'll buy it!" thinking it was a typo on his part. He then replied "Sold" and the rest is history. A number of members were very annoyed with me for a bit, but I just happened to be there at the very moment clicking on "show new posts" and it was the first thing on my screen. I used it to cook some live rock and was pretty disappointed. However, I just recently got a new impellar to at least get it back up to ASM standards.
The ASM G3 was a purchase on a lark. A guy on our club site put it up for sale at 2am at a rediculously low price. I told him "At that price, I'll buy it!" thinking it was a typo on his part. He then replied "Sold" and the rest is history. A number of members were very annoyed with me for a bit, but I just happened to be there at the very moment clicking on "show new posts" and it was the first thing on my screen. I used it to cook some live rock and was pretty disappointed. However, I just recently got a new impellar to at least get it back up to ASM standards.
corals b 4 bills
New member
My nitrates have always been 30 + So one day I got fed up and made up 60 gallons of new water and put my old water in a large garbage can, removed my rock and swooshed it around in the old water. then I had a pump lightly blowing across the surface of the sand all night with a penguin filter I could not belive how much detritus I accumulated, I bought a tunze system and from that time on my nitrates have been zero, May not be text book but it beats giving up the hobbie (by the way no fish or corals have been lost during the whole experience). *
I agree, that stuff is good for a new tank.
But he needs more then nitrifying bacteria. Frit-zyme speeds up a new tank cycle. He already cycled his tank. And its producing plenty of nitrates as he is well aware. What he needs is the other types of bacteria to help out. The denitrating type that live deep in the sandbed.
Stability says this about their product.
"contains a synergistic blend of aerobic, anaerobic, and facultative bacteria which facilitate the breakdown of waste organics, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate"
These are the bacteria that will help his cause.
This is right off the Frit-zyme website.
Quote
AUTOTROPHS vs. HETEROTROPHS
There is a lot of confusion among aquarists about nitrifying bacteria. This is due in large part to the recent emergence of a wide variety of bacterial products claiming to be nitrifiers or nitrifying aids. The confusion results from the plethora of misinformation presented in advertisements and the aquarist’s general lack of knowledge about bacteria. Most of these products actually contain species of heterotrophic bacteria from the genera Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichia, and others.
True nitrifying bacteria are considered to be those belonging to the family NITROBACTERACEAE. These bacteria are strictly aerobic, gram-negative, chemolithic autotrophs. They require oxygen, utilize mostly inorganic (without carbon) compounds as their energy source, and require carbon dioxide (CO2) for their source of carbon. In the case of the Nitrobacteraceae these energy sources are derived from the chemical conversion of ammonia to nitrite, or, nitrite to nitrate.
Ok heres where onehundred is missing the the remainder of the cycle. He has a deficiency of the bacteria that handle the breakdown of nitrate. Notice the bacteria belonging to the family NITROBACTERACEAE break down ammonia to nitrite, or, nitrite to nitrate. But thats it for them.
Five genera are generally accepted as ammonia-oxidizers and four genera as nitrite-oxidizers. Of these, NITROSOMONAS (ammonia-oxidizers) and NITROBACTER (nitrite-oxidizers) are the most important. Species of marine nitrifiers are different from those that prefer fresh water, and yet, are very closely related. Each species has a limited optimum range for survival. They are very slow growing because of the manner in which they must obtain energy. Under optimal growth conditions, they will double in population every 15-24 hours. Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, can reproduce in as little as 15 minutes to 1 hour.
Where does ammonia in the aquarium come from? Some of it is released directly by the fish; by diffusion from the blood across the gill membranes. Excreted urea or uric acid is also converted to ammonia through a process called mineralization. Solid organic, nitrogenous, waste material (a.k.a.- sludge) is also converted to ammonia through mineralization. Sources of this waste material are from fecal material, the decay of plant and animal tissues, and from the decay of excess food. Mineralization is accomplished by any of a number of species of heterotrophic bacteria. Species from the genus Bacillus are the most common.
Ammonia is the primary compound produced by this process. Some species of heterotrophic bacteria can oxidize or reduce nitrogenous compounds directly to nitrites (NO2), nitrate (NO3), or other forms of nitrogen (as NO or N2). In the absence of an organic nitrogen source, many heterotrophs can utilize ammonia instead. This is much more likely to happen in the laboratory, under ideal conditions, than in actual practice. In the aquarium, as in nature, an organic, nitrogen rich, food source is constantly being produced and is readily available for these bacteria to utilize. Heterotrophic bacteria have little or no need to resort to utilizing ammonia as their source of nitrogen.
No they use nitrate, phosphate along with carbon. Two things we want out of our tanks, right?
This ability of heterotrophic bacteria to utilize ammonia has led to the erroneous belief that they are as effective as true nitrifying bacteria in establishing the nitrogen cycle. These bacteria, however, generally cannot utilize nitrites. Experimental data has shown that up to one million times more (103 - 106) of these heterotrophic ‘nitrifers’ are required to perform a comparable level of ammonia conversion that is attained by true autotrophic nitrifiers. When using heterotrophic ‘nitrifiers’, the nitrogen cycle in the aquarium basically follows the same course as when no bacteria are added and the system cycles naturally.
Another negative aspect to heterotrophs is that under certain environmental conditions they can operate in the reverse direction. In other words, they can convert nitrate back to nitrites and ammonia through a process called dissimilation. This is generally an anaerobic process, but, can occur during periods when dissolved oxygen levels are very low (DO £ 2.0 ppm). Dissimilation is a part of the denitrification process. Denitrification is the conversion (reduction) of nitrites and nitrate to gaseous nitrogen (N2, NO, N20).
Now we're talking about what onehundred needs to hear.
Heterotrophic bacteria can be either gram-positive (ex: Bacillus) or gram-negative (ex: Pseudomonas). Some are strictly aerobic, but many are facultative anaerobes (they can survive in both the presence or absence of oxygen). Many species tolerate a wide range of environmental conditions: temperature, pH, salinity, etc.
They can also survive adverse conditions by forming spores, increasing the shelf life of the products. Because of this ability, they can be dried, packaged, and sold as viable cultures. Nitrifying bacteria do not form spores and cannot survive drying. This process kills the bacteria leaving no viable bacteria which might inoculate another culture. It has been debated whether or not nitrifying bacteria could survive freeze drying, but, even this is doubtful.
Dry product formulations are by far the most common. These products consist of sludge removing and other nonpathogenic, heterotrophic species of bacteria and their culture media. Formulations may vary to some degree, but, they all perform the same functions. They all contain bacteria species that digest proteins, fats, oils, cellulose, and starch.
Sounds like something we would want in our tank.
These are similar to liquid sludge removers with broader applications. They often contain species of bacteria that function well in fresh, brackish, or salt water. Most liquid type bacterial products available in the pet industry contain little or no true nitrifying bacteria. Instead, they rely on their ability to maintain tolerable levels of ammonia until naturally occurring Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria can become established. Both of these liquid and dry products should be considered as biological aids to nitrification.
Some manufacturers recommend the addition of gravel or water from an established aquarium. This is their only source of nitrifying bacteria. An element of risk is involved with this method because the potential exists for introducing disease causing pathogens into the new tank.
Fritz-Zyme #7 (freshwater) and #9 (brackish and marine) contain pure cultures of LIVE Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria. Our Fritz-Zymes #7 & #9 give nitrification a tremendous boost by introducing over two million nitrifying bacteria per ounce of product to rapidly accelerate the nitrification process. Ammonia and nitrite levels are quickly and significantly reduced to safe levels. Fish stress induced by high levels of ammonia and nitrites is also reduced and mortalities normally associated with “New Tank Syndrome†are sharply curtailed.
For effective and safe removal of ammonia and nitrites during the critical conditioning phase of a new aquarium always rely on FRITZ-ZYME #7 or #9 Biological Water Conditioners. It’s the brand that really works!!
So you see this is a great product for new tanks. But not for removing nitrates.
melev
Well-known member
Prime can be used in the tank to remove nitrates, btw. It is made by Seachem and is safe with all livestock. But I wouldn't use it in this situation because it isn't an emergency. Huge water changes will take care of it, and the LR and sandbed will be able to keep them down once this is accomplished.
He just completed a major water change and needs to do another one tomorrow. If one is done four times in a row, the numbers will be vastly reduced.
Good post Zedar.
He just completed a major water change and needs to do another one tomorrow. If one is done four times in a row, the numbers will be vastly reduced.
Good post Zedar.
Rhodesholar
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9072106#post9072106 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
What I could do is take some pictures of both of my skimmers so you could see that they are NOT the same quality whatsoever. And my ER 12-2 is an older version, one that was stored in an attic for years along with 5 others. A local guy was planning to open a store and it never really took off. He called me when he knew I was in the market for a new skimmer and told me to come over and pick the one I wanted. All six boxes were still sealed, and to be honest I didn't know what to get. I just trusted him and it was the best decision "we" ever made. hehe
The ASM G3 was a purchase on a lark. A guy on our club site put it up for sale at 2am at a rediculously low price. I told him "At that price, I'll buy it!" thinking it was a typo on his part. He then replied "Sold" and the rest is history. A number of members were very annoyed with me for a bit, but I just happened to be there at the very moment clicking on "show new posts" and it was the first thing on my screen. I used it to cook some live rock and was pretty disappointed. However, I just recently got a new impellar to at least get it back up to ASM standards.
I know the quality is not the same. It never was, I stated that earlier. The ASM is made much cheaper. However going back to when I purchased mine (over a year ago) it used the same pump (sedra), with the same impeller and from all comparisons that I read equaled the skimming efficiency of the ER of the same size for almost 2x the price. Feel free to disagree, I welcome it. I am just stating from what I read and researched. On top of it ASM was started by an offshoot of ER because they felt the design was good. That was another deciding factor.
I also researched people who had phenomenal tanks (I think some of them were TOTM here on RC), and many of them were using ASM skimmers, and were very happy with them. My deduction was if they can have that awesome of a tank with that skimmer and they are happy with them, they can't be junk.
I am not disagreeing or trying to argue that ASM is now or ever was superior to ER. I am just surprised that the skimmer that was a rave a year ago is now considered so-so. The only rational I see is that ER did a redesign, and thus now has a far superior design as far as skimming efficiency goes and a far more attractive price point, which would qualify your statement.
As far as quality of construction it was never a contest......ER wins hands down. However I was not prepared to pay nearly $450 when I could get the ASM for almost half and for all practical purposes at the time, at the very least was as nearly effective as the ER. If you disagree, I have no problem with that. We can agree to disagree. As I stated earlier, from everything I read and researched at the time, results wise the ER and ASM were very comparable, and the ASM for half the price sealed the deal.
This will be my last post on the matter. If some one wants to refute me, I welcome it. The conclusion reached from my research at the time (which perhaps maybe flawed) is what I qualify my statements on and they won't change. If ER has since redesigned to a far superior design, then no comparison can be made and I will readily admit that ASM can not compete.
However a year ago, from my perspective that was not the case.
RichConley
New member
Sorry Rhodescholar, I just wasnt being clear.
The situation now, is the G3 is up at almost $300 (ASM raised the minimum prices that retailers can sell it for) and the equivalent ER is like $320. ER dropped their prices significantly at about the same time ASM raised theirs. ER also modified their pinwheels, and started using the more powerful GenX pumps at about the same time, so the ER is on average 5-10% more expensive, but is a 50% better performer, and much better constructed. The difference in cash is no longer significant, and the difference in performance now is.
Basically, Reef Octopus is where ASM was 3 or 4 years ago: Half the price of the ER (or less, NW200 is G4+/RS180 equivalent @ $189), and slightly worse performance. The Reef Octopus' are much better built than the ASM though, and close to the ER.
That being said, put a meshwheel on yours, and it'll destroy a new ER, so I wouldnt worry about buying a new one. At this point, all the commercial skimmers (except the ATIs) pretty much get smoked by cheaper models with meshwheels, so nobody should really be spending a ton on skimmers, as they are ALL significanly underperforming what theyre capable of. The worst part is it seems like the more expensive skimmers are just closer to their performance threshold: IE, a Deltec Eheim 1260 pulls 25-30 scfh stock, and can only pull 35ish with a meshwheel. An OR3500 on the other hand, pulls 20scfh stock, but can pull 50 with a meshwheel, and some of the GenX4100s are pulling 50-60 now.
Assuming theres a Sedra 5000 on yours, it would probably pull 15-20 right now, and could probably pull 50% to 100% more with a meshwheel.
Your reasoning when you bought your ASM was the same reasoning for me when I bought my Octopus, and we were essentially in the same position. Things have just changed since you bought yours, and ASM is no longer really a good value. They were a phenominal value a year or two ago though.
^^^ My Schpiel on the current state of the skimmer market/DIY scene.
Or build your own skimmer and use the mesh wheel mod and save a ton
http://randystacye.com/diy_needle_wheel_skimmer.htm
Thanks randy
http://randystacye.com/diy_needle_wheel_skimmer.htm
Thanks randy
rleechb
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9073547#post9073547 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
Or build your own skimmer and use the mesh wheel mod and save a ton
http://randystacye.com/diy_needle_wheel_skimmer.htm
Thanks randy
Agreed! That would be much cheaper and far less of a hassle than adding a little mesh to your existing ASM.
NeuroLarry
Premium Member
A couple of comments. I recently switched to Lamotte test kit and found it much easier to read than the salifert. There is a colorimeter included. I have not done a head to head comparison of salifert and Lamotte in terms of readings. Also had a question about lionfish and grouper in a reef? I was under teh impression they are not reef safe. Maybe their propensity to produce detritus is the reason.
onehundred20
In Memoriam
they are reef safe, but not safe for smaller fishes.
onehundred20
In Memoriam
k, so ive been busy as heck the last week cause im about done with college, so I didnt get another water change in and it seems that are back at around 50 or so, gonna prun my cheato and do another water change here hopefully tommorow.
onehundred20
In Memoriam
Great news! My nitrates read 10 the last 2 days on the salifert test kit...Basically did a 44 gallon change after the 50%...pruned half of my cheato last nite and thats about it, i have a feeling the sand bed is kicking in some as well because last week it read 30 or so.
although my corals dont look any better yet, should i just give them time?
although my corals dont look any better yet, should i just give them time?
