NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

[mindi]

Can I just confirm that for those of us living in places where ethanol is more expensive than NOPOX that I can dose with just vinegar..?
To avoid pH drop I have diluted with RO/DI by 5 times and then dose it over four shots across the day...have been measuring pH frequently and no noticeable drop at all across the day. I am nett dosing 4 times NOPOX volume and my Nitrates are at 0.3 but have only been going a week....so are there any undesirable side effects of just using vinegar 5%...?

Other parameters are Alk 3.5, Ca 450, pH 8.2

 

[tmz]

Diluting 5% vinegar gives bacteria a chance to consume the acetate before it's dosed. The acidity at 5% keeps them at bay. Likewise the alcohol in vodka keeps them at bay. So, diluting the vinegar below 5% with ro water may l result in bacterial growth in the acetic acid solution.
There is a product sold in Canada for aquariums that contains ethanol with a tinge of methanol for aquarium use . I'll see if I can find it. Found it see post 209 in this thread.The methanol makes it unfit for human consumption and not taxable as a liquor . NOPOx also contains about 3% methanol.

 

[mindi]

Of course we do have Methylated Spirits which used to be just ethanol and methanol, but I suspect (do not know) that the methanol has commonly been replaced here by less toxic and equally discouraging denaturants like Piridine(?) and possibly Benzene derivatives. I am not a chemist, but that is what I have seen reported here. So I assume that whatever the denaturants are they render the product unsuitable for our purpose.

 

[shermanator]

Of course we do have Methylated Spirits which used to be just ethanol and methanol, but I suspect (do not know) that the methanol has commonly been replaced here by less toxic and equally discouraging denaturants like Piridine(?) and possibly Benzene derivatives. I am not a chemist, but that is what I have seen reported here. So I assume that whatever the denaturants are they render the product unsuitable for our purpose.

There are a lot of ways to denature alcohol -- and plenty of them won't be reef safe. So yes, make sure you check. Benzene is a very common denaturant and should be avoided (pyridine too, though I have not seen it used would be toxic -- and pyridine absolutely reeks too).

 

[shermanator]

You are welcome :beer:.

Calculations are based on shermanator's findings on AcOH concentration in NOPOX and ratio Alk:AcOH. I've made (very) simple Excel calculator, but not sure if it is OK to attach .xls file on here? but will try.
You can made your own solution using nopox or tmz recepie. Personaly I think the original Tom's (tmz) recepie is better.

-------
Stoyan

Cool, good job with the spreadsheet.

By the way, I finally bought some of the KZ carbon dosing product. I've been swamped at work, but we will get it analyzed sometime soon.

 

[tmz]

Looking forward to thr KZ analysis, Thanks.

Yes , I'd check denatured alcohol carefully before use for harmful denaturing additions.
BTW, any comments on the concentration of methanol given it's toxicity when ingested . NOPOX per your analysis uses 3%, IIRC ,is that a concern for a reef tank application vs vodka or pure ethanol. Is 10% a concern ?

 

[Righteous]

BTW, any comments on the concentration of methanol given it's toxicity when ingested . NOPOX per your analysis uses 3%, IIRC ,is that a concern for a reef tank application vs vodka or pure ethanol. Is 10% a concern ?

I wondered the same thing and did a little research. Methanol toxicity in humans primarily stems from its breakdown into formic acid. Other animals have different abilities to deal with the formic acid. However I did find a study looking specifically at aquatic life, and there were toxic effects in certain amounts, and at least one species of zooplankton seemed to be the most sensitive. Chronic exposure to 1.5 grams per L of water resulted in gill damage to fish.

Here's the study abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15162848

I haven't done the calculation to determine how many milligrams of methanol per liter of wtaer would be present in a reef tank after dosing NOPOX. Also I have no idea how to determine how quickly it's metabolised in the reef tank, or whether any formic acid byproduct is released to build up in the tank water over time.

So aside from price, the unknowns with methanol was a factor for me in going the home mixed route.

 

[biom]

Cool, good job with the spreadsheet.

By the way, I finally bought some of the KZ carbon dosing product. I've been swamped at work, but we will get it analyzed sometime soon.

Great, thank you shermanator.

BTW, any comments on the concentration of methanol given it's toxicity when ingested . NOPOX per your analysis uses 3%, IIRC ,is that a concern for a reef tank application vs vodka or pure ethanol. Is 10% a concern ?

I think it is important to clarify that methanol in NOPOX is not more than 0.73% in my calculations based on ethanol: methanol molar ratio (12.91:1). Shermanator state it is 2.1% in post #135, but I think there is confusion that comes from his assumption that ethanol in NOPOX is 40%, in fact it's less than 16.7%. Correct me if i'm wrong, it is important to clarify.

 

[shermanator]

Great, thank you shermanator.



I think it is important to clarify that methanol in NOPOX is not more than 0.73% in my calculations based on ethanol: methanol molar ratio (12.91:1). Shermanator state it is 2.1% in post #135, but I think there is confusion that comes from his assumption that ethanol in NOPOX is 40%, in fact it's less than 16.7%. Correct me if i'm wrong, it is important to clarify.

Yeah, you are correct. I think (from what I can tell) I was calculating the % methanol in 40% ethanol, and that is 2.1%.

If someone is making this stuff up from scratch and can avoid the methanol, I would do so (because it's unnecessary and there is toxicity associated with methanol at higher levels, including to humans if your kid decided to drink your ethanol source (for example)). But there is almost certainly no toxicity at these levels to a reef tank, based on the methanol LD50s posted above. And bacteria will happily use methanol as a carbon source.

 

[Amoo]

Just wanted to thank all the folks who contributed to this thread. Day 1 of my switchover from Vinegar dosing to DIY NOPOX. Special shout out to "tmz" on the alcohol brand, picked it up for $14.97 at the local do drop in, can't complain there.

 

[tmz]

You are welcome.

BTW, I get the 1.75 liter Barton's vodka for $14.13 inlcluding tax from the local liquor store. I know bars need to pay higher taxes in this state anyway.

 

[Amoo]

Yeah, I got the 1.75 for just under $15 from a local liquor store, but I live in the bible belt where no alcohol is sold on Sundays in our county still so we pay a little bit more. Was just trying to be a little creative with the naming

 

[90reefernyc]

Ok so I read the whole thread and I want to try this.
My total water volume is about 350 gallons.
Questions
Can I mix the vodka and vinegar together in one container in bulk?
Can I dose with an automatic doser?
Would it be better to dose all at once when the lights come on or split up the dose hourly through the the light cycle?
My water parameters as of today are
Po4 .47
No3 50 ppm
The tank is about 7 years old.
I feed a little heavy with about 20 fish and currently have a mixed reef but trying to go more towards SPS
According to the Red Sea chart I should be dosing 42 ml of nopox should I do the same with this mix or start with half??
Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help.

 

[biom]

Can I mix the vodka and vinegar together in one container in bulk? YES

Can I dose with an automatic doser? YES

Would it be better to dose all at once when the lights come on or split up the dose hourly through the the light cycle? IME splitting the dose is more effective way.

According to the Red Sea chart I should be dosing 42 ml of nopox should I do the same with this mix or start with half?? It is better to start with 0.5 ml per 25 gal water or 7 ml for your tank and slowly to rise with 0.5 ml per 25 gal every 10 days.

 

[90reefernyc]

Can I mix the vodka and vinegar together in one container in bulk? YES



Can I dose with an automatic doser? YES



Would it be better to dose all at once when the lights come on or split up the dose hourly through the the light cycle? IME splitting the dose is more effective way.



According to the Red Sea chart I should be dosing 42 ml of nopox should I do the same with this mix or start with half?? It is better to start with 0.5 ml per 25 gal water or 7 ml for your tank and slowly to rise with 0.5 ml per 25 gal every 10 days.

Thank you biom
Going to start it this weekend and see how it goes.
Jimmy

 

[droog]

Can I mix the vodka and vinegar together in one container in bulk? YES

Can I dose with an automatic doser? YES

Would it be better to dose all at once when the lights come on or split up the dose hourly through the the light cycle? IME splitting the dose is more effective way.

According to the Red Sea chart I should be dosing 42 ml of nopox should I do the same with this mix or start with half?? It is better to start with 0.5 ml per 25 gal water or 7 ml for your tank and slowly to rise with 0.5 ml per 25 gal every 10 days.

+1

I would split the dose in two, no need to do more than that IMO. 7ml is a decent start, increase by 7ml every week or two also OK. Set the skimmer to produce a little more skimmate (wet) than usual to get the most benefit.

Re-test nutrients after a month and post here

I suspect your nitrates will be controlled more easily than Po4. Your system is well established - if it has run at higher po4 levels for a long time you'll have po4 embedded in the rock which will start to leach out to form an equilibrium with the water as you lower the level there. Basically I think no3 will decline steadily, and po4 will decline a little and then plateau.

A reactor running a small volume of GFO, changed out monthly would probably help. Say 1/4 to 1/2 of recommended by online calculator. It may be a year before your po4 gets down to your target level of (say) 0.03ppm - but that's fine. You want to make the adjustment slowly anyway.

-droog

 

[tmz]

I generally agree with above posts.

Many use gfo early on in the process if the organic carbon dosing doesn't move it enough but use it lightly . More often than not high NO3 is slower to respond since the bacteria using organic carbon go after ammonia preferenetially. , IME.I haven't used any GFO for the last 23 months ; the dosing nowhandles it along with the nitrate.

 

[90reefernyc]

Ok so I did a water change yesterday and started dosing the recommended 7ml
20% water change using ESV salt
Carbon and GFO reactor on using less than recommend amounts.
Also have a Pex-bellum reactor with chaetos pulling about a little more than hand full out a month.
Tested water parameters today 8/28 as follows:
PO4 0.26
NO3 25
PH 8.2
NH4 0
Let me know what you guys think?
Thank you

 

[droog]

Ok so I did a water change yesterday and started dosing the recommended 7ml
20% water change using ESV salt
Carbon and GFO reactor on using less than recommend amounts.
Also have a Pex-bellum reactor with chaetos pulling about a little more than hand full out a month.
Tested water parameters today 8/28 as follows:
PO4 0.26
NO3 25
PH 8.2
NH4 0
Let me know what you guys think?
Thank you

Had not heard of Pax-Bellum before. Looking at that now, seems interesting. Is that new on your tank?

Your nutrients came down pretty quickly. My vote would be to stay at the same level for a couple of weeks then up 7ml and test again in a month.

Why are you trying to reduce nutrients? Does the tank have a problem with nuisance algae? If not, I'd be inclined to move more slowly.

-droog

 

[90reefernyc]

Had not heard of Pax-Bellum before. Looking at that now, seems interesting. Is that new on your tank?



Your nutrients came down pretty quickly. My vote would be to stay at the same level for a couple of weeks then up 7ml and test again in a month.



Why are you trying to reduce nutrients? Does the tank have a problem with nuisance algae? If not, I'd be inclined to move more slowly.



-droog

Have been running the pex bellum for like 4 months now. I have some hair algae not much, brown algae on rocks and sand and bubble algae. I want to move more towards sps so I want to reduce nutrients to a point.
Thank you
Jimmy