NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

[dartier]

Sorry guys, I did not consider that other people might be waiting for the outcome.

Yes everything went very well. I have lost a couple of frags, but for explainable reasons.

In my tank I have always struggled with P04 readings that would be considered too high by most people. My P04 readings in the past were typically 0.20 - 0.08. It was this way under vinegar dosing, running GFO, and most recently running the All-In-One pellets. The basketball ball of chaeto tumbling in my fuge always stayed bright green and grew slowly.

The first change I noticed after switching to the DIY NOPOX was that the top layer of my chaeto ball went white. This happened very quickly, within 2 days of stopping the pellets and starting NOPOX. I had heard about similar events in other peoples tanks, so I was not too alarmed by the change and quickly tested my water for P04.

The reading on my meter was 4 ppb (0.012 ppm). I ran 4 more tests, just to be certain. They came out between 0 and 7 ppb with an average of the 5 tests, of 4 ppb. Wow, not what I was expecting to occur. I had never had P04 this low in the last 2 years. I am dosing 2ml/100L as suggested for the original NOPOX. My N03 has not moved much at all, about 5ppm or just a bit below (3-4 ppm?, hard to tell on the scale).

The low P04 has held at the 4 ppb reading for a week, so I have started to feed more. The true test will be in the next few days. I fed my frags last night with a bit of Reef Roids. In this past this has always spiked my P04 to dizzying heights. As of this morning's test, my P04 is 20 ppb (0.061 ppm). If the NOPOX is actually having the effect on the P04 I think it is, then this should drop back down on its own.

As I mentioned at the start, I have lost a few frags. I attribute this not to the NOPOX, but to the sudden shift in PO4 and to the fact that I have always walked a very fine line in feeding and almost certainly have underfed as a result. So I started with frags clinging to life by the skin of their polyps.

The pattern in the past has been, they brown out, then the polyps stop extending, then they slowly STN from the base up. Basically starve to death. Hopefully I can start feeding more and prevent this scenario from repeating in the future.

Back to my experiment with using the stove alcohol, no detrimental effect observed. In fact I consider it a resounding success. I mixed up 2 litres of the DIY version which should last me for 200 days. The 4L jug of alcohol should last me several years at the rate I am dosing.

Note: to anyone thinking about doing the same, I have only tested this one brand (Captain Phab 90-10) and found it to be safe. Other brands may have other ingredients that could be detrimental to your tank.

Dennis

 

[dartier]

Just want to post an update on how the switch to DIY NOPOX went. The timing of the switch coincided with a drop to 0.01 ppm of PO4. As it turns out that appears to have been the All-In-One pellets hitting their stride and I was incorrectly attributing it to the NOPOX. My PO4 soon returned to 0.06 - 0.08 on the DIY NOPOX after turning off the pellets.

I decided to wait awhile to see if the PO4 would start to fall on just NOPOX. It dropped to 0.055ppm, and just hung there for 3 weeks.

I finally relented and decided to put some GFO online. Since I expected to be needing it for the foreseeable future, I ordered in $160 of bulk GFO, 3.4KG, of the expensive, but regeneration friendly variety.

Wouldn't you know it, last night I got the new reactor plumbed in, and put a modest amount of GFO in. Then I ran 2 PO4 tests, 1 from the output, and 1 from the input before the reactor, just so I would have a baseline for future comparisons. They both came out 1-2 on my Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter. Doh. :hmm3: If I had only been a bit more patient I could have avoided spending the $160 on the GFO as the NOPOX seems to have kicked in on the PO4 side of the equation.

We will see if the DIY NOPOX is able to hold the PO4 down long term. If it doesn't I always have a lot of GFO to fall back on.

My plan is to leave my dosing untouched and start to feed more. Being able to feed a good amount has never been a luxury that I have had. I will update in a month or 2 to provide further results.

Dennis

 

[luisagos]

Thank you for the update.


Now trying to find Captain Phab 90-10 in Florida is another story.

 

[dartier]

Now trying to find Captain Phab 90-10 in Florida is another story.

In Florida can just use cheap Vodka. I only used the stove alcohol due to the extreme cost of alcohol (even the cheap stuff) in Canada due to high taxes.

That being said, you can always call them and see who their US vendors are if you wanted to use it. All their products are for recreation and boating, so Florida should be a prime market for them.

Dennis

 

[luisagos]

In Florida can just use cheap Vodka. I only used the stove alcohol due to the extreme cost of alcohol (even the cheap stuff) in Canada due to high taxes.

That being said, you can always call them and see who their US vendors are if you wanted to use it. All their products are for recreation and boating, so Florida should be a prime market for them.

Dennis

I agree, will be buying some Barton Vodka then.

Thanks.

 

[dartier]

Watching this with great interest
I'm dosing 10 ml vodka daily to a 250 gal system. How much of your dyi would I use to replace it?

Sorry I missed the last line about how much to convert from Vodka (and you are local, so the cost of Vodka adds up).

If you were to use Red Sea's recommendation, 19ML of the DIY should be about right for your system.

Ignoring the RS recommendation and just trying to match carbon content to what you are dosing now, to what the DIY contains, would be 18.82ML/day.

Dennis

 

[viktor72]

One question about DIY NOPOX,how strong the vinegar should be?The foodgrade vinegar in my store is 9%,thanks.

 

[dartier]

One question about DIY NOPOX,how strong the vinegar should be?The foodgrade vinegar in my store is 9%,thanks.

The vinegar that has been used in the recipe is 5%. So if yours is 9%, you only need to use 55% of the vinegar amount, and make up the difference with RO/DI. That should account for the difference in Acetic Acid content.

Dennis

 

[viktor72]

The vinegar that has been used in the recipe is 5%. So if yours is 9%, you only need to use 55% of the vinegar amount, and make up the difference with RO/DI. That should account for the difference in Acetic Acid content.

Dennis

Thank you

 

[biom]

The mixture of ethanol and acetic acid converts to the ethyl acetate at room temperature:
CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH → CH3COOCH2CH3 + H2O
Why ethylacetate did not appear in the spectrum from NMR (post #51)? Is it possible acetic acid from the spectrum to be acetate (sodium, magnesium or other soluble in alcohol?)
May be ethanol in the NOPOX serves also as a preservative? (16-17% ethanol is the maximum concentration microorganisms can tolerate).

 

[shermanator]

The mixture of ethanol and acetic acid converts to the ethyl acetate at room temperature:
CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH → CH3COOCH2CH3 + H2O
Why ethylacetate did not appear in the spectrum from NMR (post #51)? Is it possible acetic acid from the spectrum to be acetate (sodium, magnesium or other soluble in alcohol?)
May be ethanol in the NOPOX serves also as a preservative? (16-17% ethanol is the maximum concentration microorganisms can tolerate).

No, that reaction will not occur without an acid catalyst. Or something to soak up water (sieves) or drive off water (reflux with dean stark trap).

 

[msderganc]

Does anyone see an issue with multiplying the formula? With 9% vinegar and 40% ABV vodka, you can't double it, but you could get to 1.5x strength (for 100ml total, it would be 41.25 9% vinegar, 45ml vodka, and remainder RODI).

Now that I think about it, if I used vodka around 60%, I think you could fully double the formula.

I ask because I'd like to use less space storing it, and dose less to the tank each day.

 

[biom]

So you can make your own NOPOX (roughly) by adding 1 part vinegar to 1 part 30% ethanol.

But IMO in this case the ratio ethanol: acetic acid will be correct but solution will be 20% "weaker" than original product (will have 20% more water). To have same concentration in 1 liter product as in nopox we have to mix 600 ml vinegar 5% with 400 ml 45 % vodka (or whiskey ) If the vodka is 40% then we have to mix 600 ml vinegar with 460 ml of 40% (80 Proof) vodka but in this case solution will be 6% weaker than original.

I made this calculations using statement that acetic acid is 3% (in the original solution?) and ratio between ethanol: acetic acid is 6:1 (moles).


To make it simple:
1L nopox = 600 ml 5% vinegar + 400 ml 40% vodka
1L tmz recipe = 700 ml 5% vinegar + 300 ml 40% vodka

We also should have in mind that vodka is not pure ethanol and water, it has round 3 grams sugar and glycerol per liter and other ingredients like citric acid and sodium bicarbonate.

 

[shermanator]

But IMO in this case the ratio ethanol: acetic acid will be correct but solution will be 20% "weaker" than original product (will have 20% more water).

Yeah, there is some error in the acetic acid measurement. We found it was 2.5 +/- 0.5%. That is 20% error. If you use 2.5% (as I did in that approximation you commented on) you'll be 20% "underpowered" relative to assuming it's 3% acetic acid.

Without doing something more sophisticated, it's hard to know precisely how much AcOH is in there. But we do know the ratio and components precisely. I think it's a close enough approximation, but worth noting (as you did), it might be as much as 20% off in concentration.

 

[shermanator]

Does anyone see an issue with multiplying the formula? With 9% vinegar and 40% ABV vodka, you can't double it, but you could get to 1.5x strength (for 100ml total, it would be 41.25 9% vinegar, 45ml vodka, and remainder RODI).

Now that I think about it, if I used vodka around 60%, I think you could fully double the formula.

I ask because I'd like to use less space storing it, and dose less to the tank each day.

Should be fine. Only minor consequences would be more rapid degradation of tubing (but everything should still hold up fine for a long time). And if you make it much more concentrated (if you made it 10x or something like that), I would make sure to dose into a high flow area.

 

[msderganc]

Should be fine. Only minor consequences would be more rapid degradation of tubing (but everything should still hold up fine for a long time). And if you make it much more concentrated (if you made it 10x or something like that), I would make sure to dose into a high flow area.

Thanks!

 

[luisagos]

To make it simple:
1L nopox = 600 ml 5% vinegar + 400 ml 40% vodka
1L tmz recipe = 700 ml 5% vinegar + 300 ml 40% vodka

So is this the new formula, without any DI water?

 

[biom]

No, it is not new. I made it before shermanator to clarify that the concentration of acetic acid in nopox is 2.5% +/- 0.5%, i.e. it could be anything between 2.0 and 3.0% .In previous calculation I used 3%, shermanator uses 2.5% . And also he is using 30% ethanol in his formula; my formula is with 40% vodka.

To make it more clear:

=> if concentration of AcOH in nopox is 2 % then formula to achieve 1 liter is: 400 ml 5% vinegar + 300ml 40% vodka + 300 ml RO/DI water

=> if is 2.5% then formula is – 500 ml 5%vinegar + 375ml 40%vodka + 125 ml RO/DI water (Randy equalized amounts of water and vodka, to make it more simple. Shermanator uses 30% ethanol (instead of 40% vodka) to equalize amounts ethanol and vinegar to 1:1, without adding water)

=> if is 2.85% (maximum concentration of acetic acid possible if using 40% vodka and 5% vinegar) then formula is – 570ml 5%vinegar + 430ml 40%vodka and no RO/DI water to be added


TMZ recipe (post #88) for 1 liter is: 690 ml 5% vinegar + 310ml 40% vodka


=> So my personal choice is something between TMZ recipe and maximum concentration of NOPOX: 600 ml 5% vinegar + 400 ml 40% vodka without adding water.

I’m using 40% vodka – in EU vodka should be more than 37.5% to be legally on the market, in US products sold as "vodka" must have a minimum alcohol content of 40%.

So there are no differences between the formulas, but each of us uses different concentration of ethanol and/or rounded in different scales.

Hope it helps.

 

[tmz]

in US products sold as "vodka" must have a minimum alcohol content of 40%

Actually , there are many products sold as vodka in the US with substantially lower alcohol content;there are a large variety of 20% /40 proof vodka on the shelves ; so, folks need to pay attention to the label of the product they choose .
I suggest anyone using vodka, select a low cost unflavored distilled ,charcoal filtered 80 proof /40% alchohol content type like Batron's for $14 incuding tax for 1.75 liters which is what I've been using for over 5 years.

 

[biom]

i was referring Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...view=text;node=27:1.0.1.1.3.3;idno=27;cc=ecfr, but of course you guys know your country better :beer: Cheers!

Here are some calculations of carbon content in different solutions, it could help in calculations when converted from nopox to vinegar etc.

organic carbon content in:

vinegar 5% => 21 mg/ml
vodka 40% => 165 mg/ml
NOPOX => ~72 mg/ml (58-82)
tmz => 66 mg/ml