NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar
- Thread starter llandegfedd
- Start date
I guess 20% vodka is not a class 1 spirit per the government standards but it's becoming more popular :
https://www.google.com/search?q=20%...rM4ecgwSd2oHoBQ&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=766
A friend of mine was having difficulty with some of his corals . After checking everything we couldn't figure it out why the nitrate climbed. Casually I picked up the vodka bottle he was using ;and glanced at the label;it was 20% vodka . He had inadvertently cut his organic carbon dose in half.
https://www.google.com/search?q=20%...rM4ecgwSd2oHoBQ&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=766
A friend of mine was having difficulty with some of his corals . After checking everything we couldn't figure it out why the nitrate climbed. Casually I picked up the vodka bottle he was using ;and glanced at the label;it was 20% vodka . He had inadvertently cut his organic carbon dose in half.
shermanator
New member
That may or may not be (very) easy. My taking and assigning an NMR is trivial, but if there are non-organic components (especially some metals) it might interfere with the NMR. And (proton) NMR can only identify organic compounds (something with a proton).
If it's some combination of acetic acid, alcohol of some sort, and possible a sugar, that would be simple to determine the ratios. Absolute concentration is also fairly easy to do if 20% accuracy is close enough.
I don't have any KZ products and have never used them. What does Zeostart smell like? And is it colorless?
biom
Member
Yes, Zeostart is a carbon source and probably is very similar to NOPOX, smells like acetic acid
Zeostart is sort of original of carbondosing, it was announced in 2000 in Germany and in the same time vodka dosing method also emerged in same country. Now on the market is third generation (version) of this product - Zeostart3
Zeostart is sort of original of carbondosing, it was announced in 2000 in Germany and in the same time vodka dosing method also emerged in same country. Now on the market is third generation (version) of this product - Zeostart3
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watsonj
10 & Over Club
i was referring Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...view=text;node=27:1.0.1.1.3.3;idno=27;cc=ecfr, but of course you guys know your country better :beer: Cheers!
Here are some calculations of carbon content in different solutions, it could help in calculations when converted from nopox to vinegar etc.
organic carbon content in:
vinegar 5% => 21 mg/ml
vodka 40% => 165 mg/ml
NOPOX => ~72 mg/ml (58-82)
tmz => 66 mg/ml
So I am dosing 14ml/day of NoPOx now, I am going to go vinegar tommorow and am going to start with 47ml/day . I there any flaw in the calculations?
Thanks for providing this information and the discussions int his thread all great stuff.
biom
Member
In terms of carbon content this calculation is correct (if the concentration of AcOH in NOPOX is 2.5%), but please have in mind that the acetic acid is consumed directly from bacteria, so it is possible that in biological point of view acetic acid to have stronger effect than alcohol. So to be on the safe side i would start with lower amount of vinegar than calculated, let say 35-40 ml in your case, and to increase slowly if needed.
Vinegar/ acetic acid realeases a lot of H+ as it hydrolizes ; It needs to be dosed slowly to prevent precipitous pH downward spikes. Ethanol can be bolus dosed even though it oxidizes to a acetic . Since the oxidation takes a little time it doesn't cause spikes like acetic acid. The proportion of acetic acid in NOPOx seems low enough to mitigate the PH concern.
The concentration is given in this thread, I believe:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985
biom
Member
Yes, but is not really correct because the concentration of AcOH is measured with +/-0.5 ml accuracy which leads to this uncertainty the alcohol content - 11 or 17% by volume. That's why will be more precise to measure alcohol content directly, instead of calculation based on concentration of acetic acid. Maybe i didn't post in the right thread?
I don't understand where you think that uncertainty is coming from in the already posted NMR measurements, and I don't see why a hydrometer would be especially accurate in a solution that is a mixture of organics.
shermanator
New member
The ratio is known exactly by NMR. But there is some uncertainty in the absolute amounts of ethanol and acetic acid. What we did (standard curve of acetic acid to determine % acetic acid) is pretty accurate (+/- 0.5%) but not perfect.
I agree with you that a hydrometer in a mixed organic solution is likely not that much more accurate.
I think the recipes based on the NMR are close enough. It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be.
shermanator
New member
I just use NO3O4-X. It works great. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It's not being fixed, it's been replicated at a fraction the cost.
Been using vodka and vinegar for years before that product was being sold . I like to know what's in the products I use .
As a total quality management type , my approach is: if it ain't broke don't break it but do look for opportunities for improvement.
What's the PO4 , in your tank ;it's not listed, btw?
As a total quality management type , my approach is: if it ain't broke don't break it but do look for opportunities for improvement.
What's the PO4 , in your tank ;it's not listed, btw?
Can you clarify that? So that means 2.5% to 3.5% of the total mass of the solution is acetic acid?
In any case, I agree the exact amount is relatively unimportant since every tank should titrate the amount for their own best results anyway.
shermanator
New member
We just did a simple standard curve (varying % acetic acid) to figure out what integration (AUC) matched what we found in the NOPOX sample. We included TMS as an external standard.
biom
Member
The mixture is only of ethanol and acetic acid. Acetic acid content is only about 2.5% and has density very close to the density of water - 1.049 g/cm3, so there will be no problem to measure the alcohol content via hydrometer. Calculation of alcohol content using concentration of AcOH (2.5% +/- 0.5%) as a basis point will gives us ranges of alcohol content from 11 to 16.5 % by volume. A hydrometer will give more accurate readings IMO, especially if is calibrated for wine (i'm not speaking about professional ones or laboratory equipment, but if there is such around will be perfect
).It is quite funny - nopox recipe sound like sour spoiled wine - alcololic content of 13-15% and acetic acid in it (joke).
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If you think this hydrometer information is important and useful, I won't try any more to dissuade you. 
