NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar
- Thread starter llandegfedd
- Start date
, my point was to encourage someone who has nopox and hydrometer in hand to do this measurement, but not sure this will happen now. Never mind nopox is not that expensive, just didn't wanted to spend $$ for something I will not use.
alexander_ktn
New member
Hi!
After letting nutrients in a tank creep up a bit over the last year I'm dosing vinegar again but am thinking about trying out the NO3
O4-X ratio in carbon sources.
I'm currently bolus dosing (fast dripping) 60ml of 5% acetic acid in a 65 gallon tank in the morning (quite high, but no problems so far) and - converting this to a "NO3O4-X-ish" ratio of carbon sources - I got to the following solution:
9 ml 5% acetic acid
+ 7 ml 37.5% vodka (it's sold in this percentage here)
+ 4 ml water
= 20 ml Miracle Solution
This should contain roughly the same carbon content as what I'm currently dosing (3.075 (mix) vs 3.0 (acetic acid) grams or ml of a hypothetical 100% carbon source) but it's way over the NO3O4-X recommended dosing level - do you think it will be safe to switch or should I stay with the vinegar?
I'm asking because I'd prefer to dose such a mix to spread out the pH effects over a longer period than I currently am with vinegar bolus dosing without buying a dosing pump.
Thanks & cheers, Alex
After letting nutrients in a tank creep up a bit over the last year I'm dosing vinegar again but am thinking about trying out the NO3
O4-X ratio in carbon sources.I'm currently bolus dosing (fast dripping) 60ml of 5% acetic acid in a 65 gallon tank in the morning (quite high, but no problems so far) and - converting this to a "NO3
O4-X-ish" ratio of carbon sources - I got to the following solution:9 ml 5% acetic acid
+ 7 ml 37.5% vodka (it's sold in this percentage here)
+ 4 ml water
= 20 ml Miracle Solution
This should contain roughly the same carbon content as what I'm currently dosing (3.075 (mix) vs 3.0 (acetic acid) grams or ml of a hypothetical 100% carbon source) but it's way over the NO3
O4-X recommended dosing level - do you think it will be safe to switch or should I stay with the vinegar?I'm asking because I'd prefer to dose such a mix to spread out the pH effects over a longer period than I currently am with vinegar bolus dosing without buying a dosing pump.
Thanks & cheers, Alex
biom
Member
Hi Alex
My calculations are quite similar:
10 ml 5% acetic acid
7.5 ml 37.5% vodka
2.4 ml RO water
= 20 ml
Personally I do not have experience with transition from vinegar to vodka&vinegar dosing but i would stay on the safe side - vinegar is readily available to bacteria, but ethanol is not and hydrolysis of ethanol requires different bacteria strains and adding of such big volume of vodka in ''unprepared" aquarium will burn corals. In nopox only about 16% of carbon is in form of acetate, so I would start with 1/6 of calculated dose (or less) and increasing slowly in few weeks.
60 ml in 65 gallons is quite big dose of vinegar, for how long time you are dosing this amount?
My calculations are quite similar:
10 ml 5% acetic acid
7.5 ml 37.5% vodka
2.4 ml RO water
= 20 ml
Personally I do not have experience with transition from vinegar to vodka&vinegar dosing but i would stay on the safe side - vinegar is readily available to bacteria, but ethanol is not and hydrolysis of ethanol requires different bacteria strains and adding of such big volume of vodka in ''unprepared" aquarium will burn corals. In nopox only about 16% of carbon is in form of acetate, so I would start with 1/6 of calculated dose (or less) and increasing slowly in few weeks.
60 ml in 65 gallons is quite big dose of vinegar, for how long time you are dosing this amount?
alexander_ktn
New member
Thanks & I'll start with a reduced dose to be on the safe side.
I'd say about 1.5 - 2 weeks, with about 30ml before increasing it to the final level. I increased it together with adding extra nitrogen to lower phosphate (after having brought it down some with a bit of GFO first). I didn't get cloudy water or bacterial buildup and the fish and corals are okay so I figured it was fine for the moment.
OlivierVDL
New member
Sorry to ask, I've been reading the subject now and recipe seems very clear except about the dosing. My aquarium is now running only on water change, so no vinegar or other car or source until now. What would be you suggestion? Start with x ml per 100 l and build toward week x on a max dose of y ml per 100 l?
Thanks for you support,
Olivier
[welcome]
This article has a chart for dosing vinegar:
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium
It's very conservative, from what I can tell. If you want to dose vodka, just divide the numbers by eight. For a mix, you'll need to tell us the ratio you'd like to use.
This article has a chart for dosing vinegar:
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium
It's very conservative, from what I can tell. If you want to dose vodka, just divide the numbers by eight. For a mix, you'll need to tell us the ratio you'd like to use.
At the levels typically dosed , 6 ml of 80 proof/40% ethanol / vodka which contains only 2.4 ml of actual ethanol per 100gallons( 378,541ml) ,will not burn or be toxic to anything. I don't know of any evidence or anecdotal accounts to suggest otherwise.
The ethanol is oxidized by bacteria to acetic acid(vinegar).Acetic acid bacteria (AABs) that perfom this function are airborne and ubiquitous in nature.
The ethanol is oxidized by bacteria to acetic acid(vinegar).Acetic acid bacteria (AABs) that perfom this function are airborne and ubiquitous in nature.
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shermanator
New member
If you are just starting carbon dosing, I would not dose a mixture. I would do straight vinegar or vodka. We determined the NOPOX recipe to help save money for people currently using NOPOX. But for starting out, just pick one and go with it. If you encounter issues, then consider going to a mixed carbon source.
For the homemade NOPOX, I would use Red Sea's dosing charts.
msderganc
New member
Why do you say this? How is staying with a mixture any worse than starting with one or the other?
alexander_ktn
New member
Taking a guess here but he probably meant that it's less error prone and less work because you don't need to mix a solution but can use stuff that is readily available in known concentrations like vinegar or vodka.
I don't think he meant one or the other is necessarily "better" for a tank.
biom
Member
For sure there is difference what carbon source is used. Different carbon source = different strains of bacteria = different speed and ability of assimilation or accumulation of nitrates and phosphates. Using mix of carbon sources will ensure bigger diversity of bacterial strains. But it is true that there is a lack of scientific approval of this theoretical assumption in a reef thank. But in other hand practice (and Tom
) shown that the mixture of acetic acid and ethanol in a certain ratio works best (I'm sure it is not coincidence that in nopox also is used mix of acetic acid and ethanol in almost same ratio).
) shown that the mixture of acetic acid and ethanol in a certain ratio works best (I'm sure it is not coincidence that in nopox also is used mix of acetic acid and ethanol in almost same ratio).
msderganc
New member
For sure there is difference what carbon source is used. Different carbon source = different strains of bacteria = different speed and ability of assimilation or accumulation of nitrates and phosphates. Using mix of carbon sources will ensure bigger diversity of bacterial strains. But it is true that there is a lack of scientific approval of this theoretical assumption in a reef thank. But in other hand practice (and Tom
This was my general belief as well.
For my use of DIY NOPOX, (as Shermanator suggested) I used the Red Sea charts since I figured that this was the recommended application and it accounts for differing nutrient levels in the manual.
This is the first time that I have been able to keep my PO4 levels below 0.08 - 0.1 in a steady fashion. I am currently sitting at 0.02 - 0.03 without using any GFO and am quite pleased with the result.
I previously used vinegar only, and struggled with getting the nutrient reduction that I was looking for. My fuge was always covered in Cyano from top to bottom while dosing only vinegar. Once I started on NOPOX, the cyano has completey abated. I should note, this is the opposite of what most users typically find (that vodka/ethanol causes cyano and changing to vinegar resolves it).
Dennis
This is the first time that I have been able to keep my PO4 levels below 0.08 - 0.1 in a steady fashion. I am currently sitting at 0.02 - 0.03 without using any GFO and am quite pleased with the result.
I previously used vinegar only, and struggled with getting the nutrient reduction that I was looking for. My fuge was always covered in Cyano from top to bottom while dosing only vinegar. Once I started on NOPOX, the cyano has completey abated. I should note, this is the opposite of what most users typically find (that vodka/ethanol causes cyano and changing to vinegar resolves it).
Dennis
shermanator
New member
I think a mixture of organics is potentially* more effective. But if you are just starting to carbon dose, using a single source is simpler. And a single source is, generally, quite effective. If a single source isn't sufficient for whatever one's goals are, then add a second carbon source.
* There are plenty of anecdotal reports here, but I've never seen proof of this in the literature (mostly wastewater literature where organics are used for denitrification).
shermanator
New member
Possibly -- it seems plausible, but:
1. I've never heard of a bacteria that cannot use acetate as a carbon source and many, many (nearly all) bacteria can utilize ethanol.
2. We have no idea what the denitrifying bacterial strains found in a reef tank "prefer" in terms of carbon source.
3. I've seen no evidence that mixture = diversity even in wastewater publications. And there is a LOT of research in that area compared to reef tanks.
More carbon sources might mean more diversity. But if that is the case, why stop with two sources? We could be using methanol, isopropanol, benzoic acid, citrate, PHAs, etc etc.
shermanator
New member
This reminds me... I was looking up cyanobacteria and organic carbon sources and in the classical literature it says that cyanobacteria do not utilize any carbon source other than CO2. But cyanobacteria is now being looked at as a possible source of biofuel production and dosing organic carbons has been looked at more and more.
It turns out that both acetate and ethanol can increase the growth of cyanobacteria. So a mixture will as well.
Interesting. At the time I wondered if it might just be the nutrient reduction that trigger the demise of the cyano. This would seem to confirm it.
I had no cyano in the DT, but the sides ad bottom of my fuge were complete sheets of cyano and boy did I have a lot of pods in the fuge. Now that the cyano is gone, I still have lots of pods, but not at the same density.
Dennis
biom
Member
I'm saying exactly the same - there is no scientific approval of many processes in a reef aquarium, it is pity but there is to little science in this hobby. On this stage of development of reef hobby we rely mostly on practice - classical "trial and error" approach. That's why only classical and truly basic carbon sources for bacteria are used - vinegar and vodka - because they work, and because they are cheap and widely available. With time I believe the other sources you mentioned will become more and more widely used - for example recently more and more people used PHAs with success (including me
) in form of biopellets. And we are not speaking only for bacteria, there are also corals in our thanks and it looks that some carbon sources such as starch, lactose, glucose etc., could be toxic to corals in certain conditions and concentrations, and also big concentrations of bacteria is also dangerous to corals as described in these publications, finally i find them in full text.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf
alexander_ktn
New member
I dosed my mix today (a lower dose than what I did with vinegar).
All is well with the animals but one thing I noticed is that with vinegar alone I couldn't smell it after it was added to the tank but the acetic acid and ethanol mixture makes my tank smell of alcohol even hours after the addition. (Which is not ideal since the tank in question is in my office...)
I guess the acetates either have a higher odor threshold or that they have a lower vapor pressure and evaporate less than the ethanol.
All is well with the animals but one thing I noticed is that with vinegar alone I couldn't smell it after it was added to the tank but the acetic acid and ethanol mixture makes my tank smell of alcohol even hours after the addition. (Which is not ideal since the tank in question is in my office...)
I guess the acetates either have a higher odor threshold or that they have a lower vapor pressure and evaporate less than the ethanol.
