NOAA proposes 66 reef building coral on endangered list

[Luiz Rocha]

Very nice reply! and good info. I sure do hope you are right. My main concern is no provision for aquaculture/mariculture in existing endangered species act. Not the wild take prohibition so much..

It kind of works to a certain extent with sea horses. They are protected by CITES (meaning that they cannot be traded across international borders), but aquacultured ones are exported from Venezuela (and I visited one of their nice aquaculture facilities in Margarita Island). But things can always go wrong...

Anyhow, I am keeping an eye out for how this is progressing and will give everyone updates as it goes.

 

[jdhuyvetter]

NOAA updated the website. More info:
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/permits/corals.htm

Excerpt that pertains to us (red is mine):

What about nurseries, grow-out facilities, aquariums, zoos, and corals in captivity?

Maintenance and asexual propagation of endangered corals in a nursery would not require a permit. Additional activities such as experiments, transfer, or outplanting of captive animals will require a permit. Import or export may be authorized under a permit only for research or enhancement purposes.

ESA permits cannot be issued to import, export, or take listed species for the purpose of public display. Public display may occur if it is incidental to a permitted scientific research or enhancement activity or if the specimens were legally held in captivity at the time of listing. Selling, receiving, transporting, or shipping listed species in interstate or foreign commerce is prohibited, even if the specimens were legally held in captivity at the time of listing.
For corals currently being maintained, demonstrating that the animals were in captivity before the final listing decision is your responsibility. Please contact us at 301-427-8401 for information on this process.

 

[Steveb]

Looks like they went wrong...

 

[KeithB]

Yup! Looks lie they pretty much ignored everyone's comments regarding this.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

They are posting information in preparation for the possible classification. Nothing has been decided as of yet, according to that page.

 

[Ldagger]

I tried calling them to get an answer on how to prove you have such and such coral etc. Waited on the line for awhile and gave up. I guess at the end of the year law enforcement will start stalking this site to bust people since they have nothing better to do with our tax money.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Probably not as draconian as you think, but you never know. i know one F&W guy that says he drives by a store that has an illegal Arowanna in the front window all the time, but unless someone reports it, he can't do anything.

So while I'm sure there that even if this goes into effect, it will be impossible to enforce on the general public. Instead you will hear of instances when someone gets reported and goes thorough the hellish process and has all of their livestock, tank & equipment confiscated (and killed).

 

[TankStudy]

Selling, receiving, transporting, or shipping listed species in interstate or foreign commerce is prohibited, even if the specimens were legally held in captivity at the time of listing.

So these endangered corals have become even more endangered. They can't go anywhere now and are doomed to die in our tanks. Nonetheless, anyone could frame me for trading them frags or bits and pieces of these corals. So my best option atm is to toss all of these endangered corals or find someone to legally outplant them. I wonder what route people will choose. Face government actions, increased taxes by having corals outplanted or simply just dumping them in the garbage. What do you think people will do?

 

[jdhuyvetter]

I think there will be alot of renaming going on. A 30,000 Leagues lokani will now be a 30,000 leagues acro. That's my game anyway. I haven't run the DNA to prove what I have or don't have.

 

[HumbleFish]

I tried calling them to get an answer on how to prove you have such and such coral etc. Waited on the line for awhile and gave up. I guess at the end of the year law enforcement will start stalking this site to bust people since they have nothing better to do with our tax money.

If this goes thru, we might get all of our usernames entered into a national database. And they'll have to create a whole new law enforcement agency to police/monitor us. We'll go from obscure to notorious overnight!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Nah, they'll just make us all wear ankle bracelets.

 

[TankStudy]

I've only read about "Prohibition" maybe I may get to actually live it!

 

[atreis]

Nonetheless, this is just a hobby based around a threatened environment. I'd rather that environment survive than my hobby.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well that is one perspective, but what if the hobby is all that is left after the environment has destroyed the wild species? Are we then to destroy the captively held species in the name of following the ESA or are we to be allowed to keep them in hopes of propagating and repopulating?

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Nonetheless, this is just a hobby based around a threatened environment. I'd rather that environment survive than my hobby.

Pretty narrow minded view considering the success rate of many of the species listed due to the hobby. Further, the proposed bill is based on a lot of assumptions and very little fact.

 

[HumbleFish]

Pretty narrow minded view considering the success rate of many of the species listed due to the hobby. Further, the proposed bill is based on a lot of assumptions and very little fact.

+1 If we were to start banning any/all human activity that threatens our environment..... :lol2:

 

[atreis]

Well that is one perspective, but what if the hobby is all that is left after the environment has destroyed the wild species? Are we then to destroy the captively held species in the name of following the ESA or are we to be allowed to keep them in hopes of propagating and repopulating?

These animals are not significantly different from others that are extinct in the wild, but not yet extinct in captivity. Zoos, aquariums, and others with permits are allowed to keep them, breed them, study them, and re-introduce them to the wild. Aquarists are free to volunteer and help out with these efforts.

There are also lots of other animals that are not listed that we would still be able to purchase and keep at home.

 

[KeithB]

Nonetheless, this is just a hobby based around a threatened environment. I'd rather that environment survive than my hobby.

Do your research. Heck, use the NOAA website. Not once do they list collection for the hobby as a reason or the "decline in the reefs."

 

[atreis]

Do your research. Heck, use the NOAA website. Not once do they list collection for the hobby as a reason or the "decline in the reefs."

Can you show evidence that collection for the hobby helps the reef? No. This argument is specious. No one knows how much harm or help collection for the hobby does.

That said, it's a lot more likely that it does harm or is at best neutral, than it is that it helps.

Also, please see previous posts about enforcement of a ban. Allowing collection for the hobby (only) increases enforcement costs quite dramatically as then law enforcement has to spend time (money) ensuring the items collected are ultimately used for the hobby. Enforcement is simpler (therefore less costly to tax payers) if the ban is total. I'd be quite happy to pay higher taxes in order to permit us to continue keeping these animals, but alas, that's not the current mood in Washington.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Do your research. Heck, use the NOAA website. Not once do they list collection for the hobby as a reason or the "decline in the reefs."

I still don't understand this argument (or why we are having this discussion at all). Of course the trade is not to blame for the decline of these species, nobody is saying that it is. But the fact of the matter remains that, yes, they are in trouble. Be it climate change, ocean acidification, dynamite fishing, coral bleaching, a suit of diseases, they are declining at an alarming rate, and you still want to keep collecting these already threatened species for the aquarium trade? Why? There are more than 400 species of coral, banning the 66 that are most in trouble from the trade would still leave 344 available, is that not enough? Why?

Let me give you a clear analogy here as for why this line of reasoning does not work. Bengal tigers are nearly extinct. Pet trade has not once been mentioned as a reason for tiger population decline. Should we allow for tigers to be collected and traded as pets then?