NOAA proposes 66 reef building coral on endangered list

[KeithB]

I still don't understand this argument (or why we are having this discussion at all). Of course the trade is not to blame for the decline of these species, nobody is saying that it is. But the fact of the matter remains that, yes, they are in trouble. Be it climate change, ocean acidification, dynamite fishing, coral bleaching, a suit of diseases, they are declining at an alarming rate, and you still want to keep collecting these already threatened species for the aquarium trade? Why? There are more than 400 species of coral, banning the 66 that are most in trouble from the trade would still leave 344 available, is that not enough? Why?

Let me give you a clear analogy here as for why this line of reasoning does not work. Bengal tigers are nearly extinct. Pet trade has not once been mentioned as a reason for tiger population decline. Should we allow for tigers to be collected and traded as pets then?

Here's where your analogy falls flat on its face: Bengal Tigers number about 2000 in the world. We know a fair amount about them, including the population density needed to replenish the population along with the root causes of the population decline.

We have no hard numbers on any of the populations listed (most estimates I have seen for Euphyllia sp. put it in the millions.) We don't know the true root cause for the populations decline. No evidence is provided that preventing the very light amount of harvesting that goes on for the aquarium trade will have any impact upon the decline of the worlds reefs. The NOAA is taking a gun, pointing it in a random direction, pulling the trigger hoping some good come out of this.

If they were truly doing their homework, they'd be monitoring the Philippine reefs where harvesting for the trade has been banned for almost a decade now and see if there has been a noticeable increase in the health of those reefs. But they're either to lazy do to that (which is quite possible, after all they are .gov employees) or that data does not exist. If that data, or similar data, does exist and was presented as part of the NOAA's findings, I'd have no issues with this. I do have issues with people shooting guns in random directions though.

 

[HumbleFish]

Of course the trade is not to blame for the decline of these species, nobody is saying that it is. But the fact of the matter remains that, yes, they are in trouble. Be it climate change, ocean acidification, dynamite fishing, coral bleaching, a suit of diseases, they are declining at an alarming rate, and you still want to keep collecting these already threatened species for the aquarium trade? Why?

If the reasons you listed above are indeed why these species are in danger; then it sounds to me like leaving them in their natural habitat is a guaranteed death sentence. Re-homing them to reef aquariums would be the safest place to propagate them. So hopefully one day they can safely be returned to their natural environment.

 

[toky916]

If this goes thru, we might get all of our usernames entered into a national database. And they'll have to create a whole new law enforcement agency to police/monitor us. We'll go from obscure to notorious overnight!

Will be know as the other reefer that grows plans behind glass by high powered lights. Lol it be all over the news "grow operation busted"

 

[Alexraptor]

I still don't understand this argument (or why we are having this discussion at all). Of course the trade is not to blame for the decline of these species, nobody is saying that it is. But the fact of the matter remains that, yes, they are in trouble. Be it climate change, ocean acidification, dynamite fishing, coral bleaching, a suit of diseases, they are declining at an alarming rate, and you still want to keep collecting these already threatened species for the aquarium trade? Why? There are more than 400 species of coral, banning the 66 that are most in trouble from the trade would still leave 344 available, is that not enough? Why?

Let me give you a clear analogy here as for why this line of reasoning does not work. Bengal tigers are nearly extinct. Pet trade has not once been mentioned as a reason for tiger population decline. Should we allow for tigers to be collected and traded as pets then?

AFAIK Nobody here is at all advocating the "collecting" of endangered species.
What people are concerned about is being able to continue to grow, propagate and trade these species that already exist in captivity.

And how can growing and propagating an endangered coral possibly be considered a bad thing?

 

[Luiz Rocha]

AFAIK Nobody here is at all advocating the "collecting" of endangered species.
What people are concerned about is being able to continue to grow, propagate and trade these species that already exist in captivity.

You are the first one to say that, and I agree with you here. If you scroll up you will see a lot of people arguing that these species are not really endangered and that stopping collection won't help.

And how can growing and propagating an endangered coral possibly be considered a bad thing?

It is an enforcement problem, just easier to smuggle stuff in if they are not completely banned. But you are right, it would be nice if we had enforcement agencies that were good enough for this.

 

[dixiedog]

Will be know as the other reefer that grows plans behind glass by high powered lights. Lol it be all over the news "grow operation busted"

I'm pretty sure I can quickly retrofit my reef into a pot growing setup. My neighbors are already used to the lights, who's gonna know??:dance:

 

[Fizz71]

I'm pretty sure I can quickly retrofit my reef into a pot growing setup. My neighbors are already used to the lights, who's gonna know??:dance:

I had an Iranian friend questioned by state police for growing nuerotoxins in his basement after a neighbor complained. They dropped the investigation when he volunteered to lick the palythoas in front of them.

 

[Steveb]

AFAIK Nobody here is at all advocating the "collecting" of endangered species.
What people are concerned about is being able to continue to grow, propagate and trade these species that already exist in captivity.

And how can growing and propagating an endangered coral possibly be considered a bad thing?

You are the first one to say that, and I agree with you here. If you scroll up you will see a lot of people arguing that these species are not really endangered and that stopping collection won't help.

ummm no he's not...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21526469#post21526469

My main concern is no provision for aquaculture/mariculture in existing endangered species act. Not the wild take prohibition so much..

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21495698&postcount=74

Well that is one perspective, but what if the hobby is all that is left after the environment has destroyed the wild species? Are we then to destroy the captively held species in the name of following the ESA or are we to be allowed to keep them in hopes of propagating and repopulating?

 

[ca1ore]

AFAIK Nobody here is at all advocating the "collecting" of endangered species.
What people are concerned about is being able to continue to grow, propagate and trade these species that already exist in captivity.

It is an interesting point though. How sustainable would our hobby be if the importation of corals were to stop completely? Seems to me that fish would be more of a problem than corals.

 

[rich850]

Do you think the government is going to come in your home and inspect your tanks? That's when I will be worried. Even if they did do you think they can really identify acropora species on this list from the next? If there are certain species you would like to collect do it now and you probably won't have to worry about it. Then its up to you to sustain it in your tank. Take care of it. Make frags for your personal backups in the case something should happen to a piece. Frag them for friends you have in the hobby as well. I hate to say it but NOAA is probably going to do what they want regardless of your vote, but I don't know about everyone else I am going to still have fun with this hobby. And don't take it the wrong WU absolutely voice your opinion to try to protect our rights to continue to aquaculture species. Just my thoughts on it

 

[bowfront]

Somehow I found this thread in a search for something else. I'd like to add another link with more information to anyone interested. Personally I have no doubt that NOAA will become more involved in coral protection in the future. What that means to this hobby is questionable. Once any species enters the federal endangered species list it's extremely protected. Basically forget about legally possessing it without a federal permit to do so.

http://legalplanet.wordpress.com/20...-recent-proposal-to-protect-66-coral-species/

 

[HumbleFish]

Just an update: NMFS extends endangered coral ruling for six months

The American reef aquarium hobby can breathe a little easier today, at least for another 6 months. Having received a deluge of public comments and lots of criticisms from coral researchers and scientists, the National Marine Fisheries Service is extending its evaluation of the proposal to list up to 66 corals as threatened or endangered.

I tried posting a link to the article... but the system won't allow it.